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I agree 100% with you Have worked as both PM and developer and now run my own very small software company A) two years senior engineer is like one of those co

I agree 100% with you Have worked as both PM and developer and now run my own very small software company A) two years senior engineer is like one of those consulting companies where everyone in 2 years becomes DIRECTOR B) In two years most new programmers have not even gotten their heads out of their asses C) You should refer to Outliers 10,000 hours to master a task And to that add 10,000 hours to make your first masterpiece D) Even if you have managed to get 10,000+ hours of coding experience in high school and college and somehow become a very good programmer (which less than 3% of CS grads do) it will still take you 6 to 10 years to get another 10,000 hours of working on masterpieces and making really good software that you can ship and make money from E) a title like 'Senior Software Engineer' should be reserved for someone who has MADE and SHIPPED and GENERATED MONEY from a very good piece of software or some software product F) Personally, I would think any company handing out Senior Software Engineer titles after 2 years is a joke Between all the places my friends and college mates and I have worked (Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook, Oracle, etc. etc) I can't think of any place that handed out Senior Software Engineer like it was candy Even very, very good programmers had to EARN IT

mellosouls 6y ago
E) a title like 'Senior Software Engineer' should be reserved for someone who has MADE and SHIPPED and GENERATED MONEY Not all software is made to make money. There is a more convincing argument that saving time is a motivator in a significant proportion of software either directly or indirectly; but honestly that ugly assumption of monetary motivation in everything of value is quite alienating to some of us - even in something as benign (?) as a discussion here.
- bauerd 6y ago
  Time is money
  - mellosouls 6y ago
    That saying is why I suggested time as a more useful (but still limited) alternative.
m463 6y ago
didn't yahoo have an awful lot of directors? (or was it vps?)
nscalf 6y ago
How long are we going to hold onto this silly 10,000 hours thing? Mastery, and high levels of skill, are a combination of inherent talent + explicit effort (not passive time) + quality of experience. I have seen 15 year experienced engineers who are utterly useless, and 2 year engineers who are incredible in everything they do. Your description of a senior engineer is not a job one person should be doing. If you’re trying to get a senior engineer to figure out how to make something, support it, deploy it, and monetize it, you’re going to get half assed work on every front. Beyond all that, the ranking of senior should be more company scale specific. A senior engineer at FAANG needs to be able to scale infinity and build things that never break. A senior engineer at a 30 person company needs to build quickly and AB test features rapidly. Ultimately, “software engineer” is far too broad. It doesn’t really embed much knowledge beyond “knows how to code”.
- warrenm 6y ago
  >How long are we going to hold onto this silly 10,000 hours thing? Easy - until some other metric comes along to reliably replace it It's a useful rule-of-thumb It's not an absolute, and, had you bothered to read Outliers, you'd know that But it's more fun to sit back and armchair quarterback others via anecdote, right?

mellosouls 6y ago

E) a title like 'Senior Software Engineer' should be reserved for someone who has MADE and SHIPPED and GENERATED MONEY Not all software is made to make money. There is a more convincing argument that saving time is a motivator in a significant proportion of software either directly or indirectly; but honestly that ugly assumption of monetary motivation in everything of value is quite alienating to some of us - even in something as benign (?) as a discussion here.

bauerd 6y ago
Time is money
- mellosouls 6y ago
  That saying is why I suggested time as a more useful (but still limited) alternative.

m463 6y ago

didn't yahoo have an awful lot of directors? (or was it vps?)

nscalf 6y ago

How long are we going to hold onto this silly 10,000 hours thing? Mastery, and high levels of skill, are a combination of inherent talent + explicit effort (not passive time) + quality of experience. I have seen 15 year experienced engineers who are utterly useless, and 2 year engineers who are incredible in everything they do. Your description of a senior engineer is not a job one person should be doing. If you’re trying to get a senior engineer to figure out how to make something, support it, deploy it, and monetize it, you’re going to get half assed work on every front. Beyond all that, the ranking of senior should be more company scale specific. A senior engineer at FAANG needs to be able to scale infinity and build things that never break. A senior engineer at a 30 person company needs to build quickly and AB test features rapidly. Ultimately, “software engineer” is far too broad. It doesn’t really embed much knowledge beyond “knows how to code”.

warrenm 6y ago
>How long are we going to hold onto this silly 10,000 hours thing? Easy - until some other metric comes along to reliably replace it It's a useful rule-of-thumb It's not an absolute, and, had you bothered to read Outliers, you'd know that But it's more fun to sit back and armchair quarterback others via anecdote, right?