3 ms·

There are pretty solid legal requirements for describing an egg as "free range" within the EU (or UK), which are clear on things like the stocking density, acce

There are pretty solid legal requirements for describing an egg as "free range" within the EU (or UK), which are clear on things like the stocking density, access to outdoor space etc. I don't think there is any reasonable basis for your view that this is "nothing more than branding".

dogma1138 6y ago
I think you might want to check up on those high standards. https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/28/secret-camera-films-chickens-laying-eggs-surrounded-by-rotting-birds-12131921/ https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/28/secret-camera-films-chickens-... And even without violations like this the regulation is extremely murky and the requirements are laughable the UK standard for free range eggs allows for no more than 13 hens per square meter not only that even if it was accounted for correctly it isn’t any better than regular farming the regulation grants a lot of freedom for how this is calculated and most farms reach that figure by counting in areas that the chickens can’t actually roam in. But sure if 13 hens per meter is free range to you then yes the U.K. and the EU have very strict regulations indeed.
- Reason077 6y ago
  The EU legal requirement for free-range eggs is a maximum stocking density of 9 hens per square meter, plus 4 square meters per hen of outdoor space, and continuous access to the outdoors during daylight hours. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_eggs#European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_eggs#European_Union Eggs certifications like Red Lion, RSPCA, and organic soil association all specify stricter standards than the legal requirements.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    That wikipedia link is out of date, the RSPCA specifies 13 birds per square meter for it's free range certification. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/feb/28/what-does-free-range-actually-mean-its-complicated https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/feb/... I think you really should read the actual certification requirements, free range is a joke.
    - takluyver 6y ago
      ~In fact, your link is out of date~ (edit - see below). Here's the RSPCA specification from August 2017: https://science.rspca.org.uk/documents/1494935/9042554/RSPCA+welfare+standards+for+laying+hens+2017+%28PDF+4.46MB%29.pdf/fd2c382d-1a4a-29ee-781f-158c34ca6082?t=1557668428002 https://science.rspca.org.uk/documents/1494935/9042554/RSPCA... Point E 5.3 specifies no more than 9 hens per square metre of indoor space. If I'm reading correctly, this applies to both free-range and barn hens. Free range hens also need outdoor space at a density of no more than 2500 birds per hectare, which works out to 4 square metres per bird (although 1 m2 is allowed for birds under 21 weeks old). That's also the EU rule for 'free range' eggs. The RSPCA spec is about 100 pages of details about popholes, lighting, water, and so on. Whether it's effectively enforced, I can't tell, but it's not a joke. Edit: My bad, the Guardian article also says 9 birds per square metre for free range eggs. Free-range chickens raised for meat can be kept at a higher density than laying hens: 13 per square metre indoors and 1 square metre outdoor space. But eggs are the topic here.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      The RSPCA's opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The UK is bound by EU law. While it will be able to deviate as of January, this is an area that, in practice, it will probably be unwilling to move on in the short to medium; it would be politically damaging (because one argument against Brexit is that it will lead to diminished food standards) for limited returns.
- matthewmacleod 6y ago
  You can draw no useful information about standards from an article like that – producers who violate legal standards should be prosecuted, and that's an orthogonal issue to the standards themselves. I also don't think that your statements are actually correct. My understanding is that "13 hens per square meter" is actually "9 hens per square meter" since 2012, and this is the requirement for indoor space only – in addition, "free range eggs" have pretty clear stipulations for the level of outdoor access which is required (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32008R0589#L_2008163EN.01002001 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...). I mean, if your complaint is that producers are exploiting loopholes to get around regulations, or that they're just not following them and there's insufficient enforcement, then sure – that's a problem, and one that should be fixed. But it's harder to do that while not being clear about the current state of regulation and the problems faced.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  9 hens per sqm indoor space, these days. 1 hen per 4 sqm outdoor space: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_range#European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_range#European_Union There are specific rules about what can be counted.
rsynnott 6y ago
Fertilisation still seems rather unlikely, though.
sowbug 6y ago
If Morgan Spurlock¹ is correct, then in the US, it is indeed closer to branding than a qualitatively different life for the chickens, from the perspective of an ordinary consumer. ¹https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me_2:_Holy_Chicken https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me_2:_Holy_Chicken!
AniseAbyss 6y ago
Free range eggs are also more expensive- so if someone claims the free range label they get more money. If they commit fraud by not keeping to the standards they are committing a crime.

dogma1138 6y ago

I think you might want to check up on those high standards. https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/28/secret-camera-films-chickens-laying-eggs-surrounded-by-rotting-birds-12131921/ https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/28/secret-camera-films-chickens-... And even without violations like this the regulation is extremely murky and the requirements are laughable the UK standard for free range eggs allows for no more than 13 hens per square meter not only that even if it was accounted for correctly it isn’t any better than regular farming the regulation grants a lot of freedom for how this is calculated and most farms reach that figure by counting in areas that the chickens can’t actually roam in. But sure if 13 hens per meter is free range to you then yes the U.K. and the EU have very strict regulations indeed.

Reason077 6y ago
The EU legal requirement for free-range eggs is a maximum stocking density of 9 hens per square meter, plus 4 square meters per hen of outdoor space, and continuous access to the outdoors during daylight hours. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_eggs#European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_eggs#European_Union Eggs certifications like Red Lion, RSPCA, and organic soil association all specify stricter standards than the legal requirements.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  That wikipedia link is out of date, the RSPCA specifies 13 birds per square meter for it's free range certification. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/feb/28/what-does-free-range-actually-mean-its-complicated https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/feb/... I think you really should read the actual certification requirements, free range is a joke.
  - takluyver 6y ago
    ~In fact, your link is out of date~ (edit - see below). Here's the RSPCA specification from August 2017: https://science.rspca.org.uk/documents/1494935/9042554/RSPCA+welfare+standards+for+laying+hens+2017+%28PDF+4.46MB%29.pdf/fd2c382d-1a4a-29ee-781f-158c34ca6082?t=1557668428002 https://science.rspca.org.uk/documents/1494935/9042554/RSPCA... Point E 5.3 specifies no more than 9 hens per square metre of indoor space. If I'm reading correctly, this applies to both free-range and barn hens. Free range hens also need outdoor space at a density of no more than 2500 birds per hectare, which works out to 4 square metres per bird (although 1 m2 is allowed for birds under 21 weeks old). That's also the EU rule for 'free range' eggs. The RSPCA spec is about 100 pages of details about popholes, lighting, water, and so on. Whether it's effectively enforced, I can't tell, but it's not a joke. Edit: My bad, the Guardian article also says 9 birds per square metre for free range eggs. Free-range chickens raised for meat can be kept at a higher density than laying hens: 13 per square metre indoors and 1 square metre outdoor space. But eggs are the topic here.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    The RSPCA's opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The UK is bound by EU law. While it will be able to deviate as of January, this is an area that, in practice, it will probably be unwilling to move on in the short to medium; it would be politically damaging (because one argument against Brexit is that it will lead to diminished food standards) for limited returns.
matthewmacleod 6y ago
You can draw no useful information about standards from an article like that – producers who violate legal standards should be prosecuted, and that's an orthogonal issue to the standards themselves. I also don't think that your statements are actually correct. My understanding is that "13 hens per square meter" is actually "9 hens per square meter" since 2012, and this is the requirement for indoor space only – in addition, "free range eggs" have pretty clear stipulations for the level of outdoor access which is required (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32008R0589#L_2008163EN.01002001 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...). I mean, if your complaint is that producers are exploiting loopholes to get around regulations, or that they're just not following them and there's insufficient enforcement, then sure – that's a problem, and one that should be fixed. But it's harder to do that while not being clear about the current state of regulation and the problems faced.
rsynnott 6y ago
9 hens per sqm indoor space, these days. 1 hen per 4 sqm outdoor space: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_range#European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_range#European_Union There are specific rules about what can be counted.

rsynnott 6y ago

Fertilisation still seems rather unlikely, though.

sowbug 6y ago

If Morgan Spurlock¹ is correct, then in the US, it is indeed closer to branding than a qualitatively different life for the chickens, from the perspective of an ordinary consumer. ¹https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me_2:_Holy_Chicken https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me_2:_Holy_Chicken!

AniseAbyss 6y ago

Free range eggs are also more expensive- so if someone claims the free range label they get more money. If they commit fraud by not keeping to the standards they are committing a crime.