5 ms·

But why are the students like that in the first place? It sounded outlandish to me at first, but over time it seems more and more likely that it could be the r

But why are the students like that in the first place? It sounded outlandish to me at first, but over time it seems more and more likely that it could be the result of decades-long subversion campaigns that sought to supplant western/enlightenment ideals with authoritarian-marxist ideals which view speech as inherently dangerous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversion Maybe I’m disregarding Hanlon’s razor

ceilingcorner 6y ago
https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI
skrebbel 6y ago
> decades-long subversion campaigns I get where you're coming from, but by phrasing it this way you draw up the image of a secret cabal of influential marxists waging a "campaign" via gullible students. That's not really doing the rest of your argument justice. As always, the much more likely story is that these students are gullible and silly totally by their own means.
- mayniac 6y ago
  >I get where you're coming from, but by phrasing it this way you draw up the image of a secret cabal of influential marxists waging a "campaign" via gullible students. Probably because the "cultural marxism" conspiracy theory originated from the Nazi conspiracy theory of "cultural bolshevism". The idea that Marxists are subverting Western society is a delusional theory pushed by far-right lunatics.
encom 6y ago
Look up "Yuri Bezmenov", and be enlightened. His insight on subversion is eye opening. I'd link some stuff, but I'd probably be banned.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  I just linked to it. It was in Call of Duty, hardly a lunatic fringe source.
nix23 6y ago
>But why are the students like that in the first place Show their might over others probably. Please leave Marx alone, he was the guy that spoke against the royalty and for a fair system. Lenin and Stalin of course is a complete different thing.
- anthk 6y ago
  These American WSJs are laughted off from European Marxists, for them they are just a punch of Starbucks posh hipsters. Your parent comment doesn't know a shit.
ianleeclark 6y ago
There's a bit of irony that, in response to a commoditization of education, your response is to blame "marxists." If anyone, blame marshall field because the customer definitely isn't always right.
- nix23 6y ago
  >because the customer definitely isn't always right That's not the problem, the problem is that a Student should NOT be a Customer but a Student.
  - ianleeclark 6y ago
    > That's not the problem, the problem is that a Student should NOT be a Customer but a Student. Then OP shouldn't point to some amorphous blob of "marxists," just because they're an easy enemy.
    - nix23 6y ago
      True, i hate it when someone thinks Marx wanted the real-world communism of the USSR, his ideas where in fact the opposite. The Communist Party of the USSR where nothing else then the Czarist regime under a different flag, now Russia is a 'Democracy' and again has a Czar.
      - anthk 6y ago
        >The Communist Party of the USSR where nothing else then the Czarist regime Some should explain to your parent commenter that Stalin itself grew up under a conservative Church like seminarium, under the influence of the Orthodox Church. In essence, Stalin converted a socialist regime to another one under Neo-tsarism with a bureaucratic state.
bonoboTP 6y ago
It existed before, but social media gave it the spark that set it all on fire.
pas 6y ago
Students are "like that", because they feel powerless and complicit by slaving away in a virtually for-profit education system, that they see as part of the problem. They understandably want change, progress, solidarity, etc. Basically think of this as the very very very watered down version of a student protest. After all young adults are the prime age cohort who are sensitive to social issues. This requires no organized subversion.
- nix23 6y ago
  But then the Horse kicks into the wrong direction.
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  So why does this happen mostly in the US?
  - pas 6y ago
    It might happen elsewhere too, but we just don't know about those instances. The 24-hour constant breaking news cycle is perfected in the US, and some of that bubbles up to HN, whereas similar events from other countries doesn't even make much "news", much less make it out of that country. Plus it might simply be that because US public discourse has become more polarized than that of other countries. Also USC administration is full of shit anyway, they fired the previous dean of that school and tried to buy his silence: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-ellis-usc-marshall-business-school-20190630-story.html https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-ellis-usc-marsha...
- koheripbal 6y ago
  It seems odd that students feel enslaved by the for-profit schools, and yet attack everyone BUT the school itself.
  - pas 6y ago
    They attack those who they think represent the school. The dude they see in the classroom. "Little do they know" the decisions are made by administrators. (Only strictly research/science decisions are still handled by profs, but they also don't really do much other than churn out grant proposals and papers.) And this was seen in the debates (shouting matches?) that faculty members had with students elsewhere. (I'm thinking about a video about some safe space protest.) It was not some nameless administrator trying to persuade (and educate) the emotional students, but someone that actually cares about education yet the decision about not hosting a lecture by some controversial figure is usually made by the administration, to play it safe. (While the initial decision to host some event is usually made by some club/group, approved by the administration. And that approval just gets withdrawn.) Of course looking at this with a very reductionist first principles eye it makes sense. Students don't want to learn from someone they don't consider at least a bit an authority figure. So they then voice their grievances to them too. And if the educator cannot do anything about those problems, then he/she was just a fake authority figure all along. (And then just a bit of cognitive dissonance helpfully informs them that from this it logically follows that whatever said educator had said is wrong/useless. And so young folks go ideology shopping, and that's why suddenly there are post-cultural Marxo-modernists everywhere.)
TomSwirly 6y ago
> it could be the result of decades-long subversion campaigns that sought to supplant western/enlightenment ideals with authoritarian-marxist ideals which view speech as inherently dangerous You must be joking. Please - tell me you are joking. It's hard to believe an educated adult could actually say what you are saying with a straight face. EDIT: someone else here said it better: "The idea that Marxists are subverting Western society is a delusional theory pushed by far-right lunatics."
anthk 6y ago
Marxist is WESTERN ideas and it came from Enlightenment. Where do you think Marx was born?
- Simulacra 6y ago
  Kingdom of Prussia, 5 May 1818. Prussia was an absolute monarchy, and in 1818 I would opine that was certainly NOT Western ideas.
  - anthk 6y ago
    LOL. Marx itself praised the American and French revolutions, as a good steep on human progressiveness.

ceilingcorner 6y ago

https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI

skrebbel 6y ago

> decades-long subversion campaigns I get where you're coming from, but by phrasing it this way you draw up the image of a secret cabal of influential marxists waging a "campaign" via gullible students. That's not really doing the rest of your argument justice. As always, the much more likely story is that these students are gullible and silly totally by their own means.

mayniac 6y ago
>I get where you're coming from, but by phrasing it this way you draw up the image of a secret cabal of influential marxists waging a "campaign" via gullible students. Probably because the "cultural marxism" conspiracy theory originated from the Nazi conspiracy theory of "cultural bolshevism". The idea that Marxists are subverting Western society is a delusional theory pushed by far-right lunatics.

encom 6y ago

Look up "Yuri Bezmenov", and be enlightened. His insight on subversion is eye opening. I'd link some stuff, but I'd probably be banned.

ceilingcorner 6y ago
I just linked to it. It was in Call of Duty, hardly a lunatic fringe source.

nix23 6y ago

>But why are the students like that in the first place Show their might over others probably. Please leave Marx alone, he was the guy that spoke against the royalty and for a fair system. Lenin and Stalin of course is a complete different thing.

anthk 6y ago
These American WSJs are laughted off from European Marxists, for them they are just a punch of Starbucks posh hipsters. Your parent comment doesn't know a shit.

ianleeclark 6y ago

There's a bit of irony that, in response to a commoditization of education, your response is to blame "marxists." If anyone, blame marshall field because the customer definitely isn't always right.

nix23 6y ago
>because the customer definitely isn't always right That's not the problem, the problem is that a Student should NOT be a Customer but a Student.
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  > That's not the problem, the problem is that a Student should NOT be a Customer but a Student. Then OP shouldn't point to some amorphous blob of "marxists," just because they're an easy enemy.
  - nix23 6y ago
    True, i hate it when someone thinks Marx wanted the real-world communism of the USSR, his ideas where in fact the opposite. The Communist Party of the USSR where nothing else then the Czarist regime under a different flag, now Russia is a 'Democracy' and again has a Czar.
    - anthk 6y ago
      >The Communist Party of the USSR where nothing else then the Czarist regime Some should explain to your parent commenter that Stalin itself grew up under a conservative Church like seminarium, under the influence of the Orthodox Church. In essence, Stalin converted a socialist regime to another one under Neo-tsarism with a bureaucratic state.

bonoboTP 6y ago

It existed before, but social media gave it the spark that set it all on fire.

pas 6y ago

Students are "like that", because they feel powerless and complicit by slaving away in a virtually for-profit education system, that they see as part of the problem. They understandably want change, progress, solidarity, etc. Basically think of this as the very very very watered down version of a student protest. After all young adults are the prime age cohort who are sensitive to social issues. This requires no organized subversion.

nix23 6y ago
But then the Horse kicks into the wrong direction.
0-_-0 6y ago
So why does this happen mostly in the US?
- pas 6y ago
  It might happen elsewhere too, but we just don't know about those instances. The 24-hour constant breaking news cycle is perfected in the US, and some of that bubbles up to HN, whereas similar events from other countries doesn't even make much "news", much less make it out of that country. Plus it might simply be that because US public discourse has become more polarized than that of other countries. Also USC administration is full of shit anyway, they fired the previous dean of that school and tried to buy his silence: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-ellis-usc-marshall-business-school-20190630-story.html https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-ellis-usc-marsha...
koheripbal 6y ago
It seems odd that students feel enslaved by the for-profit schools, and yet attack everyone BUT the school itself.
- pas 6y ago
  They attack those who they think represent the school. The dude they see in the classroom. "Little do they know" the decisions are made by administrators. (Only strictly research/science decisions are still handled by profs, but they also don't really do much other than churn out grant proposals and papers.) And this was seen in the debates (shouting matches?) that faculty members had with students elsewhere. (I'm thinking about a video about some safe space protest.) It was not some nameless administrator trying to persuade (and educate) the emotional students, but someone that actually cares about education yet the decision about not hosting a lecture by some controversial figure is usually made by the administration, to play it safe. (While the initial decision to host some event is usually made by some club/group, approved by the administration. And that approval just gets withdrawn.) Of course looking at this with a very reductionist first principles eye it makes sense. Students don't want to learn from someone they don't consider at least a bit an authority figure. So they then voice their grievances to them too. And if the educator cannot do anything about those problems, then he/she was just a fake authority figure all along. (And then just a bit of cognitive dissonance helpfully informs them that from this it logically follows that whatever said educator had said is wrong/useless. And so young folks go ideology shopping, and that's why suddenly there are post-cultural Marxo-modernists everywhere.)

TomSwirly 6y ago

> it could be the result of decades-long subversion campaigns that sought to supplant western/enlightenment ideals with authoritarian-marxist ideals which view speech as inherently dangerous You must be joking. Please - tell me you are joking. It's hard to believe an educated adult could actually say what you are saying with a straight face. EDIT: someone else here said it better: "The idea that Marxists are subverting Western society is a delusional theory pushed by far-right lunatics."

anthk 6y ago

Marxist is WESTERN ideas and it came from Enlightenment. Where do you think Marx was born?

Simulacra 6y ago
Kingdom of Prussia, 5 May 1818. Prussia was an absolute monarchy, and in 1818 I would opine that was certainly NOT Western ideas.
- anthk 6y ago
  LOL. Marx itself praised the American and French revolutions, as a good steep on human progressiveness.