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That is true, but it's even more a problem of experience, which is hard to get outside of a niche (like Louis Rossman woth Apple). I understand pretty much ever

by franga2000 6y ago

That is true, but it's even more a problem of experience, which is hard to get outside of a niche (like Louis Rossman woth Apple). I understand pretty much everything in a schematic and have replaced some passives and small ICs in the past, but as each schematic is formatted differently, with different amounts of Chinese and redaction, often in poorly-searchable pdf form, even finding the value of an obviously blown cap can take a fair amount of time. Being able to download a brd file straight from the manufacturer, along with a list of probe points and Mouser links for ICs would surely make it much easier. P.S.: thanks for the link, it'll certainly come in handy!

tekknik 6y ago
> Being able to download a brd file straight from the manufacturer, along with a list of probe points and Mouser links for ICs would surely make it much easier. Don’t you think you’re asking for a bit much here? You’re asking for board layout in an easily digestible and copyable format. This is most definitely IP for the company and they should just give it away? This would be detrimental to the industry. Apple makes laptop, releases schematic, cheap chinese clones would be available within a few hours. I get that people want to repair their stuff, there’s nothing wrong with that, but when the path forward requires dismantling the entire IP protection system do we really want to push forward so Johnny Brokenwatch doesn’t have to buy a new Apple Watch?
- franga2000 6y ago
  Apple brds are already available if you know where to look and Chinese clone manufacturers have serious connections, so this would've happened already if it were feasible.
  - tekknik 6y ago
    Not at all, it remains illegal which is why you don’t see it happening already.
    - franga2000 6y ago
      I mean, it would still be illegal to copy their designs... The only difference would be that looking at them would be legal.
    - rasz 6y ago
      Again, schematics and PCB layout are not covered by neither copyright nor patents. This is the reason behind Apple, Commodore, IBM and others fighting clones with bios/firmware lawsuits.
      - tekknik 6y ago
        See reply above, yes they are.
- rasz 6y ago
  There is no IP protection for schematics and pcb layout due to its utility function and mechanical generation (or something). Chip layout had to get separate considerations to be covered at all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit_layout_design_protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit_layout_desi... But that is beside the point. I have full manufacturing board files (actual files that go into pick&place machine) for designs going as far back as ThinkPad 600X, yet you dont see Chinese made ThinkPad 600X clones.
  - tekknik 6y ago
    Note that your wiki articles says it’s difficult to protect, not that it isn’t IP. Further, a quote from the article: “ So since the 1990s, national governments have been granting copyright-like exclusive rights conferring time-limited exclusivity to reproduction of a particular layout.” Where did you get these schematics? An individual, or even a small company, having these files is not the same as a large company. Also have you tried releasing a thinkpad clone? have we checked all chinese built laptops to ensure the IP isn’t already being used?
    - rasz 6y ago
      _chip layout_, this wiki article is about silicon, it got its own laws specifically to protect chip layout at the time Western believed they had the upper hand in the high end design engineering. PCB is free game everywhere except I think UK, but good luck fighting it in courts. Not schematics, actual fab files you send to pcb manufacturer + ones you put in a pick&place machine to populate the board. From China, where else, most likely "backed up" by middle level worker to make extra $ on a side. Still no laptop straight clones despite 25 years worth of designs ready for the taking.
      - tekknik 6y ago
        Here, from a lawyer saying “register your pcb” https://garson-law.com/ask-dr-copyright-protect-your-software-circuit-boards-and-mask-works/ https://garson-law.com/ask-dr-copyright-protect-your-softwar...

tekknik 6y ago

> Being able to download a brd file straight from the manufacturer, along with a list of probe points and Mouser links for ICs would surely make it much easier. Don’t you think you’re asking for a bit much here? You’re asking for board layout in an easily digestible and copyable format. This is most definitely IP for the company and they should just give it away? This would be detrimental to the industry. Apple makes laptop, releases schematic, cheap chinese clones would be available within a few hours. I get that people want to repair their stuff, there’s nothing wrong with that, but when the path forward requires dismantling the entire IP protection system do we really want to push forward so Johnny Brokenwatch doesn’t have to buy a new Apple Watch?

franga2000 6y ago
Apple brds are already available if you know where to look and Chinese clone manufacturers have serious connections, so this would've happened already if it were feasible.
- tekknik 6y ago
  Not at all, it remains illegal which is why you don’t see it happening already.
  - franga2000 6y ago
    I mean, it would still be illegal to copy their designs... The only difference would be that looking at them would be legal.
  - rasz 6y ago
    Again, schematics and PCB layout are not covered by neither copyright nor patents. This is the reason behind Apple, Commodore, IBM and others fighting clones with bios/firmware lawsuits.
    - tekknik 6y ago
      See reply above, yes they are.
rasz 6y ago
There is no IP protection for schematics and pcb layout due to its utility function and mechanical generation (or something). Chip layout had to get separate considerations to be covered at all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit_layout_design_protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit_layout_desi... But that is beside the point. I have full manufacturing board files (actual files that go into pick&place machine) for designs going as far back as ThinkPad 600X, yet you dont see Chinese made ThinkPad 600X clones.
- tekknik 6y ago
  Note that your wiki articles says it’s difficult to protect, not that it isn’t IP. Further, a quote from the article: “ So since the 1990s, national governments have been granting copyright-like exclusive rights conferring time-limited exclusivity to reproduction of a particular layout.” Where did you get these schematics? An individual, or even a small company, having these files is not the same as a large company. Also have you tried releasing a thinkpad clone? have we checked all chinese built laptops to ensure the IP isn’t already being used?
  - rasz 6y ago
    _chip layout_, this wiki article is about silicon, it got its own laws specifically to protect chip layout at the time Western believed they had the upper hand in the high end design engineering. PCB is free game everywhere except I think UK, but good luck fighting it in courts. Not schematics, actual fab files you send to pcb manufacturer + ones you put in a pick&place machine to populate the board. From China, where else, most likely "backed up" by middle level worker to make extra $ on a side. Still no laptop straight clones despite 25 years worth of designs ready for the taking.
    - tekknik 6y ago
      Here, from a lawyer saying “register your pcb” https://garson-law.com/ask-dr-copyright-protect-your-software-circuit-boards-and-mask-works/ https://garson-law.com/ask-dr-copyright-protect-your-softwar...