5 ms·

Few minutes gain is simply not true. Its IMO closer to an hour. Having ability to jump asap to any letter on the screen and any file in the project in few keypr

Few minutes gain is simply not true. Its IMO closer to an hour. Having ability to jump asap to any letter on the screen and any file in the project in few keypresses without browsing trough the tree and son on, is massive speed up. It doesn't just save time, it saves focus.

switch11 6y ago
This 100% -> Few minutes gain is simply not true. Its IMO closer to an hour. Having ability to jump asap to any letter on the screen and any file in the project in few keypresses without browsing trough the tree and son on, is massive speed up. It doesn't just save time, it saves focus. * would argue that a lot of people who write things like 'it only saves a few minutes a day' have never actually tracked how much time it actually saves * one good thing worth doing is to get a tool that tracks how much time you spend on different applications and websites during your work day it will TRANSFORM your understanding of how you use your time
brandonmenc 6y ago
These are not "power user" features. Every single IDE and text editor for programmers can do this stuff, and they are often the only features that 90% of users learn.
- majkinetor 6y ago
  Some of them are, most of them are not - you cant really jump to ANY letter on screen without vim plugin (AFAIK). Having quick access to options is paramount - like vscode F1. Besides, huge majority of IDE users do not use keyboard shortcuts but browser trough its GUIs, even if the feature exists. Its the IDE mindset (personal experience).
  - brandonmenc 6y ago
    > you cant really jump to ANY letter on screen without vim plugin There are Ace Jump [0] plugins for most IDEs. imo, easier to use and more powerful than stock vi navigation commands. > huge majority of IDE users do not use keyboard shortcuts but browser trough its GUIs Does it count if you "browse the GUI" without ever touching the mouse? I use the "search everywhere" [1] dialog in JetBrains by pressing double-shift all the time. When I used emacs, I would M-x tab-complete commands all the time. Same thing. Which requires more effort: pressing 4-ish keys to spell out an editor command you use only a few times a day or trying to memorize every arcane key combination? Also, does tabbing in the emacs command buffer count as "browsing the GUI?" I think so. I say it all the time, but I think a lot of power vi/emacs users have not touched a modern IDE in a long time. Everything is keyboard accessible nowadays, and I would argue vastly more discoverable compared to vi/emacs. I also think that there is a strange magical thinking-esque hang-up against any UI that can't be drawn in a terminal. [0] https://github.com/acejump/AceJump https://github.com/acejump/AceJump [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/searching-everywhere.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/searching-everywhere.htm...
    - majkinetor 6y ago
      I used vim for more then 5 years then switched to VSCode as it makes plugin setup much easier. I also use VS and JetBrains here and there and maybe I am biased, but I prefer code at this point. Yeah, modern IDEs got some stuff from modern editors for sure. One of the primary pain points for me is that installation/setup of IDE is much more lengthy, they are pricey too - I can setup vim/code in minutes on empty machine. Just downloading/installing VS takes a bunch of time. This however has nothing to do with efficiency but counts overall. > There are Ace Jump [0] plugins for most IDEs. imo, easier to use and more powerful than stock vi navigation commands. The page you posted lists InteliJ Platform. Vim doesn't have such plugin OTB FYI. > Also, does tabbing in the emacs command buffer count as "browsing the GUI?" I think so. If tabbing is done via mouse, yes. > Does it count if you "browse the GUI" without ever touching the mouse? Ofc not, I prefer to have a GUI, I just don't think analog controller like mouse is good way to interact with it. > I also think that there is a strange magical thinking-esque hang-up against any UI that can't be drawn in a terminal. That might have been a real thing when people did things on servers directly etc. Today there is almost 0 need to do so.
    - Reelin 6y ago
      > I also think that there is a strange magical thinking-esque hang-up against any UI that can't be drawn in a terminal. There's nothing magical about it. I prefer text based interfaces whenever available as they are generally more responsive, light on resources, use less network bandwidth, and are inherently compatible with SSH. They also tend to be very minimal, having far fewer extraneous features (ie fiddly distractions) due to the inherent design constraints. If one isn't available though then I'm happy to use a modern GUI (my web browser is an example). In fact, GUIs consistently seem to be more newbie friendly so if it's a one off I might actually avoid a text based interface just to save time.
    - RandoHolmes 6y ago
      > I say it all the time, but I think a lot of power vi/emacs users have not touched a modern IDE in a long time. Watch as my eyes roll out of my head, onto the floor, and then out the door. Why is it that you believe the only reason why a vi/emacs user could believe those environments are faster to edit in is because they don't use IDE's? The worst part is that most vi/emacs users actually DO have experience in both environments, whereas most of the people who want to claim vi/emacs isn't any faster don't. Yet they want to present themselves as an authority. And I'm one of the people who refuse to use vim emulators in IDE's because they're never quite right (and never integrate well with the IDE).

switch11 6y ago

This 100% -> Few minutes gain is simply not true. Its IMO closer to an hour. Having ability to jump asap to any letter on the screen and any file in the project in few keypresses without browsing trough the tree and son on, is massive speed up. It doesn't just save time, it saves focus. * would argue that a lot of people who write things like 'it only saves a few minutes a day' have never actually tracked how much time it actually saves * one good thing worth doing is to get a tool that tracks how much time you spend on different applications and websites during your work day it will TRANSFORM your understanding of how you use your time

brandonmenc 6y ago

These are not "power user" features. Every single IDE and text editor for programmers can do this stuff, and they are often the only features that 90% of users learn.

majkinetor 6y ago
Some of them are, most of them are not - you cant really jump to ANY letter on screen without vim plugin (AFAIK). Having quick access to options is paramount - like vscode F1. Besides, huge majority of IDE users do not use keyboard shortcuts but browser trough its GUIs, even if the feature exists. Its the IDE mindset (personal experience).
- brandonmenc 6y ago
  > you cant really jump to ANY letter on screen without vim plugin There are Ace Jump [0] plugins for most IDEs. imo, easier to use and more powerful than stock vi navigation commands. > huge majority of IDE users do not use keyboard shortcuts but browser trough its GUIs Does it count if you "browse the GUI" without ever touching the mouse? I use the "search everywhere" [1] dialog in JetBrains by pressing double-shift all the time. When I used emacs, I would M-x tab-complete commands all the time. Same thing. Which requires more effort: pressing 4-ish keys to spell out an editor command you use only a few times a day or trying to memorize every arcane key combination? Also, does tabbing in the emacs command buffer count as "browsing the GUI?" I think so. I say it all the time, but I think a lot of power vi/emacs users have not touched a modern IDE in a long time. Everything is keyboard accessible nowadays, and I would argue vastly more discoverable compared to vi/emacs. I also think that there is a strange magical thinking-esque hang-up against any UI that can't be drawn in a terminal. [0] https://github.com/acejump/AceJump https://github.com/acejump/AceJump [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/searching-everywhere.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/searching-everywhere.htm...
  - majkinetor 6y ago
    I used vim for more then 5 years then switched to VSCode as it makes plugin setup much easier. I also use VS and JetBrains here and there and maybe I am biased, but I prefer code at this point. Yeah, modern IDEs got some stuff from modern editors for sure. One of the primary pain points for me is that installation/setup of IDE is much more lengthy, they are pricey too - I can setup vim/code in minutes on empty machine. Just downloading/installing VS takes a bunch of time. This however has nothing to do with efficiency but counts overall. > There are Ace Jump [0] plugins for most IDEs. imo, easier to use and more powerful than stock vi navigation commands. The page you posted lists InteliJ Platform. Vim doesn't have such plugin OTB FYI. > Also, does tabbing in the emacs command buffer count as "browsing the GUI?" I think so. If tabbing is done via mouse, yes. > Does it count if you "browse the GUI" without ever touching the mouse? Ofc not, I prefer to have a GUI, I just don't think analog controller like mouse is good way to interact with it. > I also think that there is a strange magical thinking-esque hang-up against any UI that can't be drawn in a terminal. That might have been a real thing when people did things on servers directly etc. Today there is almost 0 need to do so.
  - Reelin 6y ago
    > I also think that there is a strange magical thinking-esque hang-up against any UI that can't be drawn in a terminal. There's nothing magical about it. I prefer text based interfaces whenever available as they are generally more responsive, light on resources, use less network bandwidth, and are inherently compatible with SSH. They also tend to be very minimal, having far fewer extraneous features (ie fiddly distractions) due to the inherent design constraints. If one isn't available though then I'm happy to use a modern GUI (my web browser is an example). In fact, GUIs consistently seem to be more newbie friendly so if it's a one off I might actually avoid a text based interface just to save time.
  - RandoHolmes 6y ago
    > I say it all the time, but I think a lot of power vi/emacs users have not touched a modern IDE in a long time. Watch as my eyes roll out of my head, onto the floor, and then out the door. Why is it that you believe the only reason why a vi/emacs user could believe those environments are faster to edit in is because they don't use IDE's? The worst part is that most vi/emacs users actually DO have experience in both environments, whereas most of the people who want to claim vi/emacs isn't any faster don't. Yet they want to present themselves as an authority. And I'm one of the people who refuse to use vim emulators in IDE's because they're never quite right (and never integrate well with the IDE).