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There's a number of other reasons the OSI doesn't approve licenses, such as avoiding license proliferation https://opensource.org/proliferation https://opensour

by geofft 6y ago

There's a number of other reasons the OSI doesn't approve licenses, such as avoiding license proliferation https://opensource.org/proliferation https://opensource.org/proliferation . As a simple example, there are a huge number of variants of the 4-clause BSD licenses where the advertising clause lists more and more people besides the University of California; they're all open-source licenses under the Open Source Definition, but the OSI isn't interested in promoting them, because including all of those advertising clauses is a pain. I think this post is not claiming that the license is (yet) approved by OSI, but it is claiming that it's an open source license under the OSD.

nsajko 6y ago
Still, the claim of "open source" or "libre" or "free software" doesn't hold water effectively if there is nobody to verify it (lawyers are probably needed, too). License proliferation is a separate issue. BTW, the OSI people on their mailing list weren't convinced that the license is conformant (during the grace period) in 2008, 2009, or 2013. Hypothetically there could have been a change of heart since, but I can't know either way without much more research. My main point is that there is a lack of transparency in the linked blog post about the license by ECC (Zooko?). EDIT: If someone wants to choose this (or any other) license, it is important for them to know if it is legally sound, how compatible it is with other licenses/project, and possibly also what are the prospects for the license's future adoption in the "market". Approval by FSF or OSI gives some assurance with all of those. Without that everyone involved with software licensed under the license will just lose time, unless hypothetically TGPPL makes it really big, big enough for everyone to switch from FSF and OSI approved licenses to TGPPL.
- geofft 6y ago
  > BTW, the OSI people on their mailing list weren't convinced that the license is conformant (during the grace period) in 2008, 2009, or 2013. Thanks, that's interesting. If you happen to have the links to the discussion it'd be worth figuring out what they thought was nonconformant (and whether it can be fixed).
  - nsajko 6y ago
    One issue seems to be that it wasn't seen as desirable to promote something that is not source-available under whatever license, which conflicts with the main idea of the TGPPL of keeping the software closed-source during the grace period. Another issue was ensuring the source becomes available after the grace period as intended. I may be wrong, though, as I haven't read even half of the extensive discussions on this topic. OSI board meetings discussing TGPPL briefly: https://opensource.org/minutes20090205 https://opensource.org/minutes20090205 https://opensource.org/minutes20090304 https://opensource.org/minutes20090304 https://opensource.org/minutes20090401 https://opensource.org/minutes20090401 Relevant mailing list threads: Dec 2008 thread: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2008-December/000461.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.... Jan 2009 thread: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2009-January/000477.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.... Feb 2009 thread: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2009-February/000499.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.... Jul 2013 threads: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org/2013-July/018425.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists... https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org/2013-July/018443.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists... Dec 2013 message: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org/2013-December/018782.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists... Jul 2018 thread: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org/2018-July/020029.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists... You might also be slightly interested in this small Wikipedia page section relevant to the motivation for the TGPPL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-source_software#Delayed_open-sourcing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-sourc...
- indymike 6y ago
  Contracts can't be verified like code. You have to go to court and actually litigate before you actually know for sure. . A lawyer's opinion... well, there are usually at least two opinions in every lawsuit. One is usually "this is legal" the other "this is illegal". We have trials to determine who is right, and then sometimes, a couple rounds of appeals.
  - nsajko 6y ago
    I agree, I just couldn't think of a better term than "verify". Still, when a non-lawyer designs a license, I think there are likely to be issues with the license that would be obvious to almost any lawyer.

by geofft 6y ago

nsajko 6y ago

Still, the claim of "open source" or "libre" or "free software" doesn't hold water effectively if there is nobody to verify it (lawyers are probably needed, too). License proliferation is a separate issue. BTW, the OSI people on their mailing list weren't convinced that the license is conformant (during the grace period) in 2008, 2009, or 2013. Hypothetically there could have been a change of heart since, but I can't know either way without much more research. My main point is that there is a lack of transparency in the linked blog post about the license by ECC (Zooko?). EDIT: If someone wants to choose this (or any other) license, it is important for them to know if it is legally sound, how compatible it is with other licenses/project, and possibly also what are the prospects for the license's future adoption in the "market". Approval by FSF or OSI gives some assurance with all of those. Without that everyone involved with software licensed under the license will just lose time, unless hypothetically TGPPL makes it really big, big enough for everyone to switch from FSF and OSI approved licenses to TGPPL.

geofft 6y ago
> BTW, the OSI people on their mailing list weren't convinced that the license is conformant (during the grace period) in 2008, 2009, or 2013. Thanks, that's interesting. If you happen to have the links to the discussion it'd be worth figuring out what they thought was nonconformant (and whether it can be fixed).
- nsajko 6y ago
  One issue seems to be that it wasn't seen as desirable to promote something that is not source-available under whatever license, which conflicts with the main idea of the TGPPL of keeping the software closed-source during the grace period. Another issue was ensuring the source becomes available after the grace period as intended. I may be wrong, though, as I haven't read even half of the extensive discussions on this topic. OSI board meetings discussing TGPPL briefly: https://opensource.org/minutes20090205 https://opensource.org/minutes20090205 https://opensource.org/minutes20090304 https://opensource.org/minutes20090304 https://opensource.org/minutes20090401 https://opensource.org/minutes20090401 Relevant mailing list threads: Dec 2008 thread: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2008-December/000461.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.... Jan 2009 thread: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2009-January/000477.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.... Feb 2009 thread: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2009-February/000499.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.... Jul 2013 threads: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org/2013-July/018425.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists... https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org/2013-July/018443.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists... Dec 2013 message: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org/2013-December/018782.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists... Jul 2018 thread: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org/2018-July/020029.html https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists... You might also be slightly interested in this small Wikipedia page section relevant to the motivation for the TGPPL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-source_software#Delayed_open-sourcing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-sourc...
indymike 6y ago
Contracts can't be verified like code. You have to go to court and actually litigate before you actually know for sure. . A lawyer's opinion... well, there are usually at least two opinions in every lawsuit. One is usually "this is legal" the other "this is illegal". We have trials to determine who is right, and then sometimes, a couple rounds of appeals.
- nsajko 6y ago
  I agree, I just couldn't think of a better term than "verify". Still, when a non-lawyer designs a license, I think there are likely to be issues with the license that would be obvious to almost any lawyer.