6 ms·

This mirrors my direct experience as well. Teaching and computers don't mix. Certainly not before eighth grade. Maybe give every student an iPad every year. T

This mirrors my direct experience as well. Teaching and computers don't mix. Certainly not before eighth grade. Maybe give every student an iPad every year. Tell Apple to just gift them for the tax write-off and goodwill. Maybe have computer labs, whatever curriculum units are called. Starting with logo turtles. Along side chemistry and other science units. Then maybe grant access to desktops and printers starting in ninth grade. Never provide internet access. I'd be okay with a computer skills class starting in middle school if there's a motivated teacher to staff it. So kids can play with Scratch, other proto programming stuff, some art stuff. Whatever's cool. Treat this like music, art, woodshop, and other electives. I'm VERY on board with a school sponsored, hosted "hackers" club. Like math, debate, young entrepreneurs, cheerleading, etc. clubs.

sokoloff 6y ago
Programming is fairly difficult (beyond some very basic exercises) without internet access at this point, even just for reference material.
- specialist 6y ago
  Sure. Kids have more computing power and information access thru their phones than what any school district should be responsible for. No school should expend any resources whatsoever trying to monitor, filter access. They can't win. I'm on the fence about internet access thru their libraries. Public libraries placing their computers in plain view of everyone doesn't deter porn surfing and so forth. So I don't even know if it's a battle worth fighting.
  - EE84M3i 6y ago
    >Public libraries placing their computers in plain view of everyone doesn't deter porn surfing and so forth. I think it does deter it, just not as much as we might like.
  - MiroF 6y ago
    Porn surfing only seems like a problem if the computers are placed in plain view of everyone
    - specialist 6y ago
      Heh. WRT schools, I only care because the controversy is a huge distraction. Well, the older kid showing porn to my younger son was also a problem. Again, not something schools should ever have to consider.
      - MiroF 6y ago
        I meant for public libraries - not schools!
    - hinkley 6y ago
      I got to witness The Talk once and it consisted predominantly of introducing and explaining the idea that there are Things You Cannot Unsee, they are all on the Internet, and thus you should not click on everything just because you’re curious.
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      The issue at public libraries I'm guessing is: a) They're afraid of their computers being used all the time for porn (for example by the homeless) thus preventing other uses more inline with their mission statement b) Hygienic issues with computers being used for porn in enclosed space (masturbation, jizz, etc.).
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    >I'm on the fence about internet access thru their libraries. Removing internet access hurts kids from poor backgrounds as they may have no other reliable form of internet access in a desktop environment.
- giantrobot 6y ago
  There's these things called books, think of them like a paper backup of a webpage. So anyways these books can have all sorts of information in them. I have heard about, but not seen, books about computers and programming. Apparently some were entire reference manuals for various programming languages! Can you imagine? These books don't even need to be charged to use them! I know it sounds crazy but they're real things. I once met an old guy, you know over 25, and he told me that before YouTube and StackExchange that people learned to program entirely by using books and typing at their computers.
  - MiroF 6y ago
    > There's these things called books, think of them like a paper backup of a webpage. So anyways these books can have all sorts of information in them. Read: Only children who can afford a computer + internet outside of school can use the (obviously superior for beginners) tools available online, everyone else relegated to books.
    - giantrobot 6y ago
      It's not a given (or obvious) that online tools are superior to books for learning to program. Even if that was objectively true it's trivial for a school to make online resources available to students without external Internet access. The point the GP was making is schools can provide technology to students but don't have to let them goof off on the Internet. Students definitely don't need Internet access to learn to program. Generations of programmers learned to program quite well without YouTube tutorials.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    I look forward to my kids reading the npm, GitHub, and stackoverflow books. Like it or not, learning coding and actually coding has changed (almost entirely for the better) since the days when I typed in page after page of code from books or magazines.
  - phobosanomaly 6y ago
    I like physical books as well. I would concede however that although generations of people learned to program using books, they were small generations. The increased accessibility that came with the internet has drastically increased the number of people able to acquire those skills. Accessibility is probably the priority in a K-12 setting where you're accommodating kids with a wide range of skills and interests in a single class, not just the kids intrinsically interested enough to actually read the book after school.
joncrane 6y ago
>Teaching and computers don't mix. Certainly not before eighth grade. I believe this is categorically and catastrophically wrong. I have led a very privileged life. I'm 45 and I was exposed to computer programming when I was in third grade. That's 1983. With old Atari computers. It was basically 10 print "Jonathan is great" 20 GOTO 10 But already we had an understanding of job flow and loops. By 5th grade I was playing Robot Odyssey. At the time I never took it seriously; there's only so much you can do with BASIC but myself and my friends already "got" how computers worked by the age of 8. I can't tell you how much of an advantage I have over not only my peers but even people younger than I am. Those precious few moments I spent in the computer lab hacking (yes, hacking. I figured out how to change the color of the background/border and the main screen, figured out how the color codes were expressed and learned how to generate random numbers, and wrote a program that would probably induce a seizure in some epileptics) resulted in me having a fundamental understanding of not only how computers work, but how to hack. Trust me, 8, even 6 & 7 year olds can learn how to program computers. Even if it's LOGO/Turtle Graphics. You can gamify problem solving and instill in young kids a fundamental understanding of things that will serve them for their entire professional career. Thanks for bringing this up because I have struggled to understand why I seem to have such an advantage over my peers when it comes to working on computers and I just realized why. None of my peers were "programming" before high school. To me "hacking" comes naturally because I first learned it at such a young age. I wouldn't worry so much about the future of our country if every 3rd grader got the EXACT same exposure and opportunity to play with programming and computers that I did. Granted, not all kids are going to take to it like I did, but the point is to expose every young American school kid to these activities so that if and when they choose to become software devs or machine learning engineers or even just spreadsheet jockeys, they get logic, programming, and computers on a fundamental level.
- specialist 6y ago
  Thank you. Agree 100%. I'm not doing a good job of making a distinction between "educational technology" and access to technology and broadband. Schools just suck at technology. Generally speaking. Access to broadband is a human right. Along with food, clothes, shelter, etc. We should be gifting a new iPad w/ cell service to every kid every year. I just don't think the schools should be responsible for those devices.

sokoloff 6y ago

Programming is fairly difficult (beyond some very basic exercises) without internet access at this point, even just for reference material.

specialist 6y ago
Sure. Kids have more computing power and information access thru their phones than what any school district should be responsible for. No school should expend any resources whatsoever trying to monitor, filter access. They can't win. I'm on the fence about internet access thru their libraries. Public libraries placing their computers in plain view of everyone doesn't deter porn surfing and so forth. So I don't even know if it's a battle worth fighting.
- EE84M3i 6y ago
  >Public libraries placing their computers in plain view of everyone doesn't deter porn surfing and so forth. I think it does deter it, just not as much as we might like.
- MiroF 6y ago
  Porn surfing only seems like a problem if the computers are placed in plain view of everyone
  - specialist 6y ago
    Heh. WRT schools, I only care because the controversy is a huge distraction. Well, the older kid showing porn to my younger son was also a problem. Again, not something schools should ever have to consider.
    - MiroF 6y ago
      I meant for public libraries - not schools!
  - hinkley 6y ago
    I got to witness The Talk once and it consisted predominantly of introducing and explaining the idea that there are Things You Cannot Unsee, they are all on the Internet, and thus you should not click on everything just because you’re curious.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    The issue at public libraries I'm guessing is: a) They're afraid of their computers being used all the time for porn (for example by the homeless) thus preventing other uses more inline with their mission statement b) Hygienic issues with computers being used for porn in enclosed space (masturbation, jizz, etc.).
- marcinzm 6y ago
  >I'm on the fence about internet access thru their libraries. Removing internet access hurts kids from poor backgrounds as they may have no other reliable form of internet access in a desktop environment.
giantrobot 6y ago
There's these things called books, think of them like a paper backup of a webpage. So anyways these books can have all sorts of information in them. I have heard about, but not seen, books about computers and programming. Apparently some were entire reference manuals for various programming languages! Can you imagine? These books don't even need to be charged to use them! I know it sounds crazy but they're real things. I once met an old guy, you know over 25, and he told me that before YouTube and StackExchange that people learned to program entirely by using books and typing at their computers.
- MiroF 6y ago
  > There's these things called books, think of them like a paper backup of a webpage. So anyways these books can have all sorts of information in them. Read: Only children who can afford a computer + internet outside of school can use the (obviously superior for beginners) tools available online, everyone else relegated to books.
  - giantrobot 6y ago
    It's not a given (or obvious) that online tools are superior to books for learning to program. Even if that was objectively true it's trivial for a school to make online resources available to students without external Internet access. The point the GP was making is schools can provide technology to students but don't have to let them goof off on the Internet. Students definitely don't need Internet access to learn to program. Generations of programmers learned to program quite well without YouTube tutorials.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  I look forward to my kids reading the npm, GitHub, and stackoverflow books. Like it or not, learning coding and actually coding has changed (almost entirely for the better) since the days when I typed in page after page of code from books or magazines.
- phobosanomaly 6y ago
  I like physical books as well. I would concede however that although generations of people learned to program using books, they were small generations. The increased accessibility that came with the internet has drastically increased the number of people able to acquire those skills. Accessibility is probably the priority in a K-12 setting where you're accommodating kids with a wide range of skills and interests in a single class, not just the kids intrinsically interested enough to actually read the book after school.

joncrane 6y ago

>Teaching and computers don't mix. Certainly not before eighth grade. I believe this is categorically and catastrophically wrong. I have led a very privileged life. I'm 45 and I was exposed to computer programming when I was in third grade. That's 1983. With old Atari computers. It was basically 10 print "Jonathan is great" 20 GOTO 10 But already we had an understanding of job flow and loops. By 5th grade I was playing Robot Odyssey. At the time I never took it seriously; there's only so much you can do with BASIC but myself and my friends already "got" how computers worked by the age of 8. I can't tell you how much of an advantage I have over not only my peers but even people younger than I am. Those precious few moments I spent in the computer lab hacking (yes, hacking. I figured out how to change the color of the background/border and the main screen, figured out how the color codes were expressed and learned how to generate random numbers, and wrote a program that would probably induce a seizure in some epileptics) resulted in me having a fundamental understanding of not only how computers work, but how to hack. Trust me, 8, even 6 & 7 year olds can learn how to program computers. Even if it's LOGO/Turtle Graphics. You can gamify problem solving and instill in young kids a fundamental understanding of things that will serve them for their entire professional career. Thanks for bringing this up because I have struggled to understand why I seem to have such an advantage over my peers when it comes to working on computers and I just realized why. None of my peers were "programming" before high school. To me "hacking" comes naturally because I first learned it at such a young age. I wouldn't worry so much about the future of our country if every 3rd grader got the EXACT same exposure and opportunity to play with programming and computers that I did. Granted, not all kids are going to take to it like I did, but the point is to expose every young American school kid to these activities so that if and when they choose to become software devs or machine learning engineers or even just spreadsheet jockeys, they get logic, programming, and computers on a fundamental level.

specialist 6y ago
Thank you. Agree 100%. I'm not doing a good job of making a distinction between "educational technology" and access to technology and broadband. Schools just suck at technology. Generally speaking. Access to broadband is a human right. Along with food, clothes, shelter, etc. We should be gifting a new iPad w/ cell service to every kid every year. I just don't think the schools should be responsible for those devices.