3 ms·

San Francisco has a means-tested variant instead [1] with the same thresholds for both children (5-18) and seniors (65+ here). Children under 5 are free. I thi

by boulos 6y ago

San Francisco has a means-tested variant instead [1] with the same thresholds for both children (5-18) and seniors (65+ here). Children under 5 are free. I think you can quibble about means testing, barriers to application, and just “do it through taxes”. Amusingly, we’re quite similar to Paris in that the SFMTA “farebox recovery ratio” (fare revenue divided by costs) is in the 25% range [2]. That low funding rate (75% through taxes then) is despite fairly large increases in the fare over time. IIRC, the youth / senior Pass was $10 in 2007 and is now $40, the regular was $50 and is now... $81 (and set to increase in January [3]). Somewhat rationally, it seems this was all connected to indexing the fares to Bay Area inflation [4], designed so that salary of the drivers keeps up with inflation. Like Paris though, we have (had) a large tourist contingent that pays full fare when visiting. Some argue that “they’re not taxpayers, make them buy tickets”, but it seems more efficient to just account for that in hotel taxes. Otherwise you never get out of the fare collection inefficiency (in San Francisco, drivers on buses must also be fare enforcers, historically leading to it being a dangerous job) and again it penalizes people who don’t know to apply for their free passes they’re entitled to. [1] https://www.sfmta.com/fares/free-muni-youth https://www.sfmta.com/fares/free-muni-youth [2] https://www.sfmta.com/reports/muni-farebox-recovery-ratio https://www.sfmta.com/reports/muni-farebox-recovery-ratio [3] https://www.google.com/amp/s/sf.curbed.com/platform/amp/2020/4/22/21231004/sfmta-muni-fare-increase-coronavirus-covid-19 https://www.google.com/amp/s/sf.curbed.com/platform/amp/2020... [4] https://sf.curbed.com/2019/6/19/18691884/muni-price-inflation-sfmta-fare-hikes-double-2009 https://sf.curbed.com/2019/6/19/18691884/muni-price-inflatio...

supernova87a 6y ago
I thought what people in SF do is simply not pay the fare, to the tune of probably 1/3 of the people on the bus. Just like, by the way, in Paris. It seems turnstile jumping is a professional sport there. I'll just add by the way (since apparently I'm being downvoted for speaking a snarky comment), that fare enforcement seems almost non-existent in both SF and Paris. Something about it being too expensive or dangerous to actually make people buy tickets. But policing your rules is an important thing for having people believe in the system, as unpopular as it may be. And maybe how safe/trustworthy the system is. Which neither SF nor Paris are shining examples of.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  Public Transit is supposed to be for the public good. With a %25 fare recovery rate, turnstile jumping is a non-issue as the service (in SF and Paris) are designed to be a service, not a business
  - supernova87a 6y ago
    So with that logic, why not just make it free for everyone? If there are rules, enforce them. Don't make the law abiding pay and look the other way for the ones breaking the rules.
    - kergonath 6y ago
      > So with that logic, why not just make it free for everyone? Why, indeed? This is a logical conclusion.
    - GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
      Yes, it’s a public good paid for by the public. Making it free would alleviate a lot of these issues.
- kergonath 6y ago
  Enforcement in Paris is getting more effective. A decade ago it was very rare to see them; now I seem to come across them about once a week. I don’t think danger was a problem in Paris. They always work as teams of ~5 people and I’ve never heard of them being specifically assaulted (unlike, say, bus drivers, unfortunately). In any case, London seem much better, both in terms of (perceived) safety and fare jumping. On the other hand, there are TfL agents everywhere (which is expensive, but you can’t jump the gates), and the fares are much higher.

by boulos 6y ago

supernova87a 6y ago

I thought what people in SF do is simply not pay the fare, to the tune of probably 1/3 of the people on the bus. Just like, by the way, in Paris. It seems turnstile jumping is a professional sport there. I'll just add by the way (since apparently I'm being downvoted for speaking a snarky comment), that fare enforcement seems almost non-existent in both SF and Paris. Something about it being too expensive or dangerous to actually make people buy tickets. But policing your rules is an important thing for having people believe in the system, as unpopular as it may be. And maybe how safe/trustworthy the system is. Which neither SF nor Paris are shining examples of.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
Public Transit is supposed to be for the public good. With a %25 fare recovery rate, turnstile jumping is a non-issue as the service (in SF and Paris) are designed to be a service, not a business
- supernova87a 6y ago
  So with that logic, why not just make it free for everyone? If there are rules, enforce them. Don't make the law abiding pay and look the other way for the ones breaking the rules.
  - kergonath 6y ago
    > So with that logic, why not just make it free for everyone? Why, indeed? This is a logical conclusion.
  - GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
    Yes, it’s a public good paid for by the public. Making it free would alleviate a lot of these issues.
kergonath 6y ago
Enforcement in Paris is getting more effective. A decade ago it was very rare to see them; now I seem to come across them about once a week. I don’t think danger was a problem in Paris. They always work as teams of ~5 people and I’ve never heard of them being specifically assaulted (unlike, say, bus drivers, unfortunately). In any case, London seem much better, both in terms of (perceived) safety and fare jumping. On the other hand, there are TfL agents everywhere (which is expensive, but you can’t jump the gates), and the fares are much higher.