5 ms·

Web standards are bloated because that's what users want: features. That's like saying "Firefox would be fine if there wasn't any well funded competition drivin

Web standards are bloated because that's what users want: features. That's like saying "Firefox would be fine if there wasn't any well funded competition driving up the feature count of browsers to meet consumer demand."

pjmlp 6y ago
Actually no, Web was perfectly fine with HTML 4.01/XHTML, but then some people at browser teams decided to declare war on native apps, HTML 5 was born and we are a couple of years before ChromeOS takes it all.
- jacob019 6y ago
  That depends on what you consider fine. Modern decelopment is so much more productive, no way I could go back to the jquery days.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Interactive documents, everything else should be a native app using Internet protocols.
- lights0123 6y ago
  I'm not complaining about well sandboxed multi-platform multi-arch webapps. Better than running an app in Wine because the publisher doesn't care about supporting Linux.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Nicely packed in Chrome, then don't complain about Google taking it all.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Maybe the whole web and browser game is not sustainable were it not for ads and bloat
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Native mobile apps are doing just fine, from monetary point of view.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  I take it you don't remember Flash and how popular it was.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Sure I do, that is why I am looking forward for WebAssembly to bring it back. https://www.leaningtech.com/pages/cheerpxflash.html https://www.leaningtech.com/pages/cheerpxflash.html
- wayneftw 6y ago
  I’d rather use and develop a PWA than a native app. So would all of my customers. iOS is the only thing holding them back. Usually we just wrap our web app in a native app for iOS and everybody is happy.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    ChromeOS for the win, afterwards don't complain.
    - wayneftw 6y ago
      Could you be a little less cryptic?
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Google is adding to Chrome all the missing APIs from ChromeOS, and folks keep using Electron instead of daemons alongside system browser or Web widgets. So from point of view of world browser market share, Safari is the only browser strong enough between what is left of Web and ChromeOS platform.
        wayneftw 6y ago
        I don't see how this helps or even relates to your point that "Web was perfectly fine with HTML 4.01/XHTML" Obviously it wasn't. Folks keep using Electron, ChromeOS, Chrome, Firefox, Edge and Safari and the HTML5 APIs that are common to all of them. If you took away everything that didn't exist in HTML 4.01/XHTML the entire world would grind to a screeching halt. Anyway, I don't see any problem with the Chrome taking on all the features of ChromeOS. Give me more features and higher quality for free, I'm not going to complain :) Also, Microsoft Edge has more users than Safari on platforms that I care about and they're the ones I'm jumping ship to if Google tries to take away uBlock Origin.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        When the world turns into a Chrome monoculture, there won't be Web any longer, job offers will turn into ChromeOS developer kind of ad.
- dageshi 6y ago
  I seem to recall Flash being developed well before HTML5 along with ActiveX components and Java applets? People have been trying to embed "native like apps" into web pages for a long time, they certainly weren't just satisfied with plain html pages.
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    So we're not talking about users anymore?
    - dageshi 6y ago
      None of those things would've lasted if the users didn't use the things created. Flash enabled video in webpages, games in webpages all things users flocked too and enjoyed.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    As means for easy distribution of native apps, and designers not wanting to dealing with the crap of doing Web design, which still hasn't been fixed in 2020, despite all attempts to make Web apps take on native apps UI engines.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pydry 6y ago
Users are losing representation in web standards meetings while Microsoft and Google are having more say.
beagle3 6y ago
I would be surprised if users asked for battery level reporting, and various other modern web standards. If Google introduced a “let website know I’m using phone on the toilet” service, I’m sure some people will claim in retrospect that users wanted it. I’m not saying that users know everything they want. But the claim that those apis are there because users want them is also false.

pjmlp 6y ago

Actually no, Web was perfectly fine with HTML 4.01/XHTML, but then some people at browser teams decided to declare war on native apps, HTML 5 was born and we are a couple of years before ChromeOS takes it all.

jacob019 6y ago
That depends on what you consider fine. Modern decelopment is so much more productive, no way I could go back to the jquery days.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Interactive documents, everything else should be a native app using Internet protocols.
lights0123 6y ago
I'm not complaining about well sandboxed multi-platform multi-arch webapps. Better than running an app in Wine because the publisher doesn't care about supporting Linux.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Nicely packed in Chrome, then don't complain about Google taking it all.
numpad0 6y ago
Maybe the whole web and browser game is not sustainable were it not for ads and bloat
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Native mobile apps are doing just fine, from monetary point of view.
marcinzm 6y ago
I take it you don't remember Flash and how popular it was.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Sure I do, that is why I am looking forward for WebAssembly to bring it back. https://www.leaningtech.com/pages/cheerpxflash.html https://www.leaningtech.com/pages/cheerpxflash.html
wayneftw 6y ago
I’d rather use and develop a PWA than a native app. So would all of my customers. iOS is the only thing holding them back. Usually we just wrap our web app in a native app for iOS and everybody is happy.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  ChromeOS for the win, afterwards don't complain.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    Could you be a little less cryptic?
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Google is adding to Chrome all the missing APIs from ChromeOS, and folks keep using Electron instead of daemons alongside system browser or Web widgets. So from point of view of world browser market share, Safari is the only browser strong enough between what is left of Web and ChromeOS platform.
      - wayneftw 6y ago
        I don't see how this helps or even relates to your point that "Web was perfectly fine with HTML 4.01/XHTML" Obviously it wasn't. Folks keep using Electron, ChromeOS, Chrome, Firefox, Edge and Safari and the HTML5 APIs that are common to all of them. If you took away everything that didn't exist in HTML 4.01/XHTML the entire world would grind to a screeching halt. Anyway, I don't see any problem with the Chrome taking on all the features of ChromeOS. Give me more features and higher quality for free, I'm not going to complain :) Also, Microsoft Edge has more users than Safari on platforms that I care about and they're the ones I'm jumping ship to if Google tries to take away uBlock Origin.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        When the world turns into a Chrome monoculture, there won't be Web any longer, job offers will turn into ChromeOS developer kind of ad.
dageshi 6y ago
I seem to recall Flash being developed well before HTML5 along with ActiveX components and Java applets? People have been trying to embed "native like apps" into web pages for a long time, they certainly weren't just satisfied with plain html pages.
- pessimizer 6y ago
  So we're not talking about users anymore?
  - dageshi 6y ago
    None of those things would've lasted if the users didn't use the things created. Flash enabled video in webpages, games in webpages all things users flocked too and enjoyed.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  As means for easy distribution of native apps, and designers not wanting to dealing with the crap of doing Web design, which still hasn't been fixed in 2020, despite all attempts to make Web apps take on native apps UI engines.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

pydry 6y ago

Users are losing representation in web standards meetings while Microsoft and Google are having more say.

beagle3 6y ago

I would be surprised if users asked for battery level reporting, and various other modern web standards. If Google introduced a “let website know I’m using phone on the toilet” service, I’m sure some people will claim in retrospect that users wanted it. I’m not saying that users know everything they want. But the claim that those apis are there because users want them is also false.