4 ms·

If M$ really loves open source, then they would have opened their office formats. They may even have made life easy for themselves by dropping their proprietary

If M$ really loves open source, then they would have opened their office formats. They may even have made life easy for themselves by dropping their proprietary formats in favour of open. This has never happened. Their intention is to retain customers on Office 365 and Azure AD subscriptions to keep large corporations on their books. A large portion of people are moving away form documents and using things like markdown which is a sensible move. Another sensible move is towards LaTeX. Calc and presentations though is a sore point. I think the days are numbered for office applications on the desktop, sadly. There is certainly much less interest in it now than there was a decade ago, maybe this is true for the laser printer also, are the two in tandem? Do we need a spreadsheet? Isn't that an anti-pattern where we'd just be better off with sqlite and a perl/python script to pipe to gnuplot? I know one of things I hated greatly was having to do the same graph fiddling over and over again. It is probably better to have the graph/calculation run on demand. 'member when the reveal that MS buried system information in word documents shocked people as it allowed for tracing authors? Regardless of editing, opening the document on another computer grow the file.

MikusR 6y ago
Like this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML
- regularfry 6y ago
  I remember MS being roundly criticised for OOXML when it landed, because it had fairly major parts that were defined by reference to the behaviour in the MS implementation. Literally "the correct behaviour according to the specification is whatever Microsoft Word does". I can have a certain amount of sympathy for MS doing that, because if your proprietary file format includes things like "take a dump of whatever the app happens to have in memory in some magical region or other", it's an uphill battle to get anything rigorous out of it in the first place. It doesn't satisfy one of the main goals of an open standard, though: that anyone should be able to offer a complete alternative implementation, purely by reference to the standard. So no, not like that.
  - Someone 6y ago
    I think there wasn’t a way for Microsoft to do this in a way that satisfied all critics. Their XML-based format existed for a few years before it was made into an open standard, so the alternative would be a standard that didn’t describe the format of the zillions of documents ‘out there’. Also, chances are nobody at Microsoft itself did know the exact effect of many of the more obscure flags. So, you either get a clean start, or you get a standard that ‘all’ existing documents can be converted to without change/loss of formatting (‘all’ in quotes because there likely are truly old documents starting life, say, as WordPerfect documents converted into “WP compatible MS Word .doc”, edited a bit, converted to “MS Word .docx”, edited a bit more, converted into open office XML whose layout changed over time) If you want the former, use https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument.
    - 6c696e7578 6y ago
      I remember WP being a very stable format between versions, unlike Word ~ 2000, it wasn't able to manage their own document formats. So if people put up with the issues then, why not now?
- aitchnyu 6y ago
  When I made a docx generator, I understood the 14000 page ECMA spec was barebones and I had to reverse engineer the output of MS Word to figure out the XML tags and attributes.
codygman 6y ago
I hope more people are moving to markdown, but how are you confidence it's most and not just software developers? I think spreadsheets are still needed, just more flexible ones like Simon Peyton Jones elastic sheet defined functions: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jH2Je6wUvPs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jH2Je6wUvPs Perhaps calc implementing that first would be a competitive advantage.

MikusR 6y ago

Like this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML

regularfry 6y ago
I remember MS being roundly criticised for OOXML when it landed, because it had fairly major parts that were defined by reference to the behaviour in the MS implementation. Literally "the correct behaviour according to the specification is whatever Microsoft Word does". I can have a certain amount of sympathy for MS doing that, because if your proprietary file format includes things like "take a dump of whatever the app happens to have in memory in some magical region or other", it's an uphill battle to get anything rigorous out of it in the first place. It doesn't satisfy one of the main goals of an open standard, though: that anyone should be able to offer a complete alternative implementation, purely by reference to the standard. So no, not like that.
- Someone 6y ago
  I think there wasn’t a way for Microsoft to do this in a way that satisfied all critics. Their XML-based format existed for a few years before it was made into an open standard, so the alternative would be a standard that didn’t describe the format of the zillions of documents ‘out there’. Also, chances are nobody at Microsoft itself did know the exact effect of many of the more obscure flags. So, you either get a clean start, or you get a standard that ‘all’ existing documents can be converted to without change/loss of formatting (‘all’ in quotes because there likely are truly old documents starting life, say, as WordPerfect documents converted into “WP compatible MS Word .doc”, edited a bit, converted to “MS Word .docx”, edited a bit more, converted into open office XML whose layout changed over time) If you want the former, use https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument.
  - 6c696e7578 6y ago
    I remember WP being a very stable format between versions, unlike Word ~ 2000, it wasn't able to manage their own document formats. So if people put up with the issues then, why not now?
aitchnyu 6y ago
When I made a docx generator, I understood the 14000 page ECMA spec was barebones and I had to reverse engineer the output of MS Word to figure out the XML tags and attributes.

codygman 6y ago

I hope more people are moving to markdown, but how are you confidence it's most and not just software developers? I think spreadsheets are still needed, just more flexible ones like Simon Peyton Jones elastic sheet defined functions: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jH2Je6wUvPs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jH2Je6wUvPs Perhaps calc implementing that first would be a competitive advantage.