3 ms·

Aren't some of these criminal fraud?

by EE84M3i 6y ago

octoberfranklin 6y ago
No. One requirement for criminal fraud is that you gain something of value.
- summitsummit 6y ago
  but you do gain something of value here, privacy. how is value defined in this context?
  - octoberfranklin 6y ago
    The legal definition, which doesn't include things like happiness/privacy/karma. Generally, in court, "value" means "market value" expressed in the currency of the court's country. Often the penalties for various levels of fraud are based on the value (= market value) of the gain -- for example, hypothetically, the law might state that if the value was under $1,000 it's a misdemeanor rather than a felony or that if the value was under $100 you can't be sentenced to prison time. Something like my own privacy which has value only to one person (me) does not have market value. [edit: added two paragraphs]
- EE84M3i 6y ago
  > - Put in a mail forwarding card with your name from a former address to a random real address like a Starbucks, Taco Bell, apartment complex w/o unit number, etc. Perhaps, but I would have assumed creating a USPS mail forward under false pretenses like this would be fraudulent. They seem to take such thing seriously. GP also mentions in a sibling comment about what to do if you need address verification for something else (which is presumably of value): > All you need is a passport or driver’s license and a utility bill with current address dated within 60 days. Most of the time the utility bill can be a “photocopy” and you just change the date or address to what you need. DMV is about the only place that needs an original document and will be familiar with what bills from your area look and feel like (because they most likely live nearby also and routinely handle documents from people in the same area as you). Doctoring a document like this also seems illegal.
  - octoberfranklin 6y ago
    I think you're copying from a different comment than the one I replied to.
  - zxcvbn4038 6y ago
    It is absurd to accept something like a utility bill as a proof of anything. Even birth certificates I don’t really understand - my original birth certificate is hand typed by an IBM Selectric typewriter on common security paper and embossed with the county seal of the area where I was born. As very few people would be able to verify the seal I think it’s more or less worthless as an secure document because it could be reproduced or approximated so easily. You can obtain guides with examples of secure documents but they are large and expensive, and I’ve never seen them at retail banks or the DMV. I’m not sure how comprehensive they are either - collecting samples at the county or city level across the decades would be a Herculean task.

Aren't some of these criminal fraud?

octoberfranklin 6y ago

No. One requirement for criminal fraud is that you gain something of value.

summitsummit 6y ago
but you do gain something of value here, privacy. how is value defined in this context?
- octoberfranklin 6y ago
  The legal definition, which doesn't include things like happiness/privacy/karma. Generally, in court, "value" means "market value" expressed in the currency of the court's country. Often the penalties for various levels of fraud are based on the value (= market value) of the gain -- for example, hypothetically, the law might state that if the value was under $1,000 it's a misdemeanor rather than a felony or that if the value was under $100 you can't be sentenced to prison time. Something like my own privacy which has value only to one person (me) does not have market value. [edit: added two paragraphs]
EE84M3i 6y ago
> - Put in a mail forwarding card with your name from a former address to a random real address like a Starbucks, Taco Bell, apartment complex w/o unit number, etc. Perhaps, but I would have assumed creating a USPS mail forward under false pretenses like this would be fraudulent. They seem to take such thing seriously. GP also mentions in a sibling comment about what to do if you need address verification for something else (which is presumably of value): > All you need is a passport or driver’s license and a utility bill with current address dated within 60 days. Most of the time the utility bill can be a “photocopy” and you just change the date or address to what you need. DMV is about the only place that needs an original document and will be familiar with what bills from your area look and feel like (because they most likely live nearby also and routinely handle documents from people in the same area as you). Doctoring a document like this also seems illegal.
- octoberfranklin 6y ago
  I think you're copying from a different comment than the one I replied to.
- zxcvbn4038 6y ago
  It is absurd to accept something like a utility bill as a proof of anything. Even birth certificates I don’t really understand - my original birth certificate is hand typed by an IBM Selectric typewriter on common security paper and embossed with the county seal of the area where I was born. As very few people would be able to verify the seal I think it’s more or less worthless as an secure document because it could be reproduced or approximated so easily. You can obtain guides with examples of secure documents but they are large and expensive, and I’ve never seen them at retail banks or the DMV. I’m not sure how comprehensive they are either - collecting samples at the county or city level across the decades would be a Herculean task.