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> competed US leadership could invite China on the ISS. And then what, watch the CCP trample HongKong, run massive internment camps, and threaten Taiwan with t

by jeswin 6y ago

> competed US leadership could invite China on the ISS. And then what, watch the CCP trample HongKong, run massive internment camps, and threaten Taiwan with total destruction? China's (CCP's) values are wholly different from the free world's; I can't think of a way to co-exist when they can get upset for even just news reporting. The west has pumped hundreds of billions of dollars into a dictatorship and they're building a powerful military with it. And Europe mostly hasn't even woken up to this yet.

pjc50 6y ago
We said all that and more about the Soviet Union, and still made gestures of international co-operation. Because it was better than nuclear war.
- Teever 6y ago
  Do you think those situations are comparable? Is the threat of nuclear war between China and the US comparable to the threat of nuclear war between the US and the USSR? Perhaps a more comparable situation is between the UK or US and Nazi Germany in the mid thirties? It would have been a terrible idea to embark on shared technological and exploratory expeditions with Nazi Germany in the 30s.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    The big parallel with Nazi Germany could I suppose be the coziness between the elites; all the way from little details like the Germans copying British foxhunting to King Edward VIII having a fascist spy as a girlfriend. However, Germany was explicitly trying to be a colonial expansionist. Having run out of unconquered countries in Africa, all that was left to enslave was Eastern Europe. Chinese expansionism seems much more limited.
- jeswin 6y ago
  But that does not correctly describe how the relationship with the Soviets were handled - that's not how I remember it. There was always cognisance of conflict, and there would have been absolutely no chance of a tilted economic relationship pumping hundreds of billions into a military which is fundamentally incompatible with democratic values. Continuing on the current path will keep things peaceful for now, but happens in twenty years? The belief that China will open up has spectacularly failed.
  - simion314 6y ago
    Try not be blinded by political scheming, China is not trying to conquer the world and US is also not trying to bring peace, the game is not as black and white as you would believe and the "good guys" will be shown as less good in 50 years when the secrets will be reveled and propaganda will switch to something else. Not cooperating in space related topics is as stupid as US demanding not to use mathematics or physics developed by China. Science should not care about the politics of the current dudes in power.
    - yearoflinux 6y ago
      Us is definitely not trying to bring peace, anywhere, ever. But I am suspicious of you when you say chia doesn't want to conquer the world. Nobody can be that naiive so I wonder how else to explain your statement. I notice you claim to be Romanian but also comment a lot on China related posts (other than this)
      - simion314 6y ago
        Yes , I am Romanian so I have a different perspective then someone from US. I can see better the trends. I am also a Star Trek fan and it pains me that we can't collaborate in space research and it is always a "race" or national security. Are you trying to imply that I am paid by China because I don't agree with US latest politics ? I am for human rights and equality , including to Saudi Arabia where half of the population are property but since they are US friends there are no daily news about the human rights there. You probably read my TikToc comments, yes I think is not about national security and more about economic and the Trump's ego, I am also against Apple lockdown of the store and I critique Apple collaborating with China and not letting Chinese people sideload applications (if I were a Chinese shill I would kiss Apple ass everything are mentioned)
ulfw 6y ago
Europe is looking to the west and noticing eroding values and a very different interpretation of what 'free world' is supposed to be.
simion314 6y ago
US is collaborating with Russia in space, you can keep politics out of this.
DarthGhandi 6y ago
Thankfully we all have the pure wholesome United States to strive towards. Get a grip hey. I'd honestly prefer to be a Uyghur in China then a black man in the US. At least one has a future.
ssijak 6y ago
China threatens one country, but NATO and mainly US actually did total destruction of dozens of countries.
justicezyx 6y ago
> China's (CCP's) values are wholly different from the free world's I dont think so much, CCP/China's value overlaps west a lot: * They at least value personal fortune, the whole society shows a frenzy higher than US to chase personal fortune. Take an example [1]. * They both believe in market economy. With different flavors. SMBs are both the major employers of the economy in both countries. * They both put people in internment camp out of perceived external threads, without factual evidence (WWII Japanese, Xinjiang Uygurs) * They both bully neighbors (US neighbors were historically suffered territory loss to US, and Cuba was shutdown from the international society by US driven effort, China bullied Vietnam and now claiming territory in south China sea) [1] https://medium.com/the-banterbury-times/why-do-chinese-people-love-money-so-much-38d224f57339 https://medium.com/the-banterbury-times/why-do-chinese-peopl...

by jeswin 6y ago

pjc50 6y ago

We said all that and more about the Soviet Union, and still made gestures of international co-operation. Because it was better than nuclear war.

Teever 6y ago
Do you think those situations are comparable? Is the threat of nuclear war between China and the US comparable to the threat of nuclear war between the US and the USSR? Perhaps a more comparable situation is between the UK or US and Nazi Germany in the mid thirties? It would have been a terrible idea to embark on shared technological and exploratory expeditions with Nazi Germany in the 30s.
- pjc50 6y ago
  The big parallel with Nazi Germany could I suppose be the coziness between the elites; all the way from little details like the Germans copying British foxhunting to King Edward VIII having a fascist spy as a girlfriend. However, Germany was explicitly trying to be a colonial expansionist. Having run out of unconquered countries in Africa, all that was left to enslave was Eastern Europe. Chinese expansionism seems much more limited.
jeswin 6y ago
But that does not correctly describe how the relationship with the Soviets were handled - that's not how I remember it. There was always cognisance of conflict, and there would have been absolutely no chance of a tilted economic relationship pumping hundreds of billions into a military which is fundamentally incompatible with democratic values. Continuing on the current path will keep things peaceful for now, but happens in twenty years? The belief that China will open up has spectacularly failed.
- simion314 6y ago
  Try not be blinded by political scheming, China is not trying to conquer the world and US is also not trying to bring peace, the game is not as black and white as you would believe and the "good guys" will be shown as less good in 50 years when the secrets will be reveled and propaganda will switch to something else. Not cooperating in space related topics is as stupid as US demanding not to use mathematics or physics developed by China. Science should not care about the politics of the current dudes in power.
  - yearoflinux 6y ago
    Us is definitely not trying to bring peace, anywhere, ever. But I am suspicious of you when you say chia doesn't want to conquer the world. Nobody can be that naiive so I wonder how else to explain your statement. I notice you claim to be Romanian but also comment a lot on China related posts (other than this)
    - simion314 6y ago
      Yes , I am Romanian so I have a different perspective then someone from US. I can see better the trends. I am also a Star Trek fan and it pains me that we can't collaborate in space research and it is always a "race" or national security. Are you trying to imply that I am paid by China because I don't agree with US latest politics ? I am for human rights and equality , including to Saudi Arabia where half of the population are property but since they are US friends there are no daily news about the human rights there. You probably read my TikToc comments, yes I think is not about national security and more about economic and the Trump's ego, I am also against Apple lockdown of the store and I critique Apple collaborating with China and not letting Chinese people sideload applications (if I were a Chinese shill I would kiss Apple ass everything are mentioned)

ulfw 6y ago

Europe is looking to the west and noticing eroding values and a very different interpretation of what 'free world' is supposed to be.

simion314 6y ago

US is collaborating with Russia in space, you can keep politics out of this.

DarthGhandi 6y ago

Thankfully we all have the pure wholesome United States to strive towards. Get a grip hey. I'd honestly prefer to be a Uyghur in China then a black man in the US. At least one has a future.

ssijak 6y ago

China threatens one country, but NATO and mainly US actually did total destruction of dozens of countries.

justicezyx 6y ago

> China's (CCP's) values are wholly different from the free world's I dont think so much, CCP/China's value overlaps west a lot: * They at least value personal fortune, the whole society shows a frenzy higher than US to chase personal fortune. Take an example [1]. * They both believe in market economy. With different flavors. SMBs are both the major employers of the economy in both countries. * They both put people in internment camp out of perceived external threads, without factual evidence (WWII Japanese, Xinjiang Uygurs) * They both bully neighbors (US neighbors were historically suffered territory loss to US, and Cuba was shutdown from the international society by US driven effort, China bullied Vietnam and now claiming territory in south China sea) [1] https://medium.com/the-banterbury-times/why-do-chinese-people-love-money-so-much-38d224f57339 https://medium.com/the-banterbury-times/why-do-chinese-peopl...