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The Trials of Psychedelic Therapy
- wqsz7xn 6y agoAm I the only one that is extremely wary of psychoactive substances being used as magic bullet treatment method? You tend not to hear about the people that have had a permanent increase of anxiety and long lasting schizophrenia from usage. This drug does not work well for everyone and you only find out once you have taken it. A bad trip can ruin some people permanently.
- dekken_ 6y agoYou should be wary, but it's always context dependent. Could it make your life better vs could it make it worse. In a hospice setting it's kind of hard to make your life worse, so it's reasonable (IMO) to try somethings there.
- iamericfletcher 6y agoI find it interesting that you think a life is worse because that life is in a hospice setting.
- dekken_ 6y agoI said your life can't get worse in a hospice, you'll likely be dead soon.
- rguiliani 6y agolots of things can be done to you before you die: https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/09/health/hospice-hhs-inspector-general-report/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/09/health/hospice-hhs-inspector-...
- LocalH 6y agoThat’s nonsense. People in hospice can still have a relatively better or worse experience. Your statement is extremely dismissive of the wide range of human experience that is possible, especially in an end-of-life situation.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- dekken_ 6y agoWay to miss the point
- kinghtown 6y agoA great part of the horror of a bad trip is how regular people treat someone who is experiencing one, or has been damaged by one. I would rank interactions with the police as a far greater danger than like an out of body experience into god knows what. I have a buddy who did like 150 hits of LSD 20 years ago and there is a great sadness in him and how he can’t really share that experience with most people. People, who’ve never played around with LSD tend to become super condescending with him like he’s damaged. The thing is, these studies or motions to incorporate psychedelics into therapy are never advocating for super human doses. I can definitely see the value in micro to moderate doses coupled with qualified therapy for non schizophrenic consenting adults. A full on like wizard trial into the nightmare heart of psycho hell with heroic doses of whatever is not what these guys are arguing for.
- OneGuy123 6y agoNothing bad will happened when interacting with police if you do as they say. Look at all the police videos on LiveLeak etc...you will see a common thread in all arrests gone wrong: the suspect didn't do as he was told despite repeated warnings.
- teataster 6y agoNever have I ever had a a pleasant interaction with law enforcement. I think that is what was implied by above poster, nothing to do with getting shot.
- chownie 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver#Shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver#Shoo... Easily debunked. The police are not absolute, they are human beings. Some of them are not suitable for the position of power and use it to abuse others.
- OneGuy123 6y agoDebunking it with a rare example? Are you truly generelizing to all arrests based on a few shitshows? You know how many police officers get killed by trying to arrest people peacefully?
- throwaway_pdp09 6y agoWhere in the article does it even imply that it's a magic bullet? It doesn't. Quite the opposite as it clearly says: "Ultimately, Oram concludes, ‘although the increased regulation may have had some impact, the decline of LSD research in the 1970s can be more convincingly explained through the outcome of the clinical trials of the late 1960s’" > This drug does not work well for everyone No drug does. > and you only find out once you have taken it. true of all prescribed drugs.
- vwat 6y agoAll of the popular psychedelics are extremely potent anti inflammatories, even at sub-psychoactive doses. And the effect lasts for months. And inflammation touches almost every modern illness... so it is a magic bullet. They also cure cluster headaches and migraines and people who suffer from those would certainly call it a magic bullet. Should we be testing every possible application to see what sticks? Yes.
- teataster 6y agoPsychedelics are not necessarily pleasant, should not be taken lightly: do your research and understand the risks if interested. AFAIK, schizophrenia is not caused but revealed by usage. AFAIK, most people suffering schizophrenia or psychotic attacks under the influence tend to be under 25 yo, which is the population that tends to suffer from those ailments. I am not a doctor, take my words with a grain of salt and do your own research. If I were to be wrong, I would love to be corrected.
- dekken_ 6y agoThere seems to be active research into some kinds of schizophrenia arising from a lack of adequate minerals/compounds in the diet, some research suggesting a better quality of life by taking a high dose of niacin
- trabant00 6y agoI am especially worried about how drugs are presented in popular culture now a days. Very popular people (Joe Rogan for example, but far from the only one) keep repeating how good drugs can be for you, what a miracle drug they can be - drop smoking in one mushroom trip, how we wrongly fought against their mass adoption, etc. Meanwhile spending time in circles where drugs are used you don't have to search at all to find plenty of examples of people who ruined their lives. Even weed can do that. And while it mostly applies to young people I have several examples of 35+ with no prior problems getting some very destructive habits. MDMA has completely changed a closed friend of mine (early forties) for the worse. Psychedelics? That's some very powerful stuff that should be handled with extreme care. Meanwhile you have youtube channels presenting them as you would have a beer. I used to be pro legalization 10-15 years ago. Right now I would investigate the problem for at least 10 years as full time job before considering a position.
- hutzlibu 6y agoI am still pro legalization, even though I fully agree with you on the dangers of wrong presentation. But I believe this is part of the criminalisation and demonisation. From the official channels, like media and school drug prevention(in germany), it was mostly a simple "don't do it" "it is all bad". While the cool, a few years older nutheads presented it as magic. If it would be legal, people could talk about it more openly and share their experience freely to the younger generation and we could help the addicts more easily, if it would not be so stigmatized, like it is now. In my area there is a great usage of amphetamines (with the root source of bad economy, though), but if those people look for official help, they have to fear of their children being taken away, etc.
- Nursie 6y ago> Meanwhile you have youtube channels presenting them as you would have a beer. Well, you should be careful about that beer. Actually you should probably be more careful about that beer. If you feel people are being too blase about cannabis, then you ought to be horrified at how popular culture treats alcohol. Alcohol is toxic, it's a killer in both acute and chronic scenarios. It's carcinogenic, harmful to a lot of your internal organs, it's addictive, it's fattening, it can even cause seizures if stopped too quickly. It causes mental health problems and mental decline. It really is one of the worst drugs and its annual death-toll beats out all other drugs combined. No drug use is without problems, but this societal attitude that "drugs" are bad, but "just a beer" is fine... it's flat out deluded. So I have no problem treating a lot of forms of drug use, particularly of drugs like cannabis and other less-harmful substances, just like someone having a beer.
- z3ncyberpunk 6y agoWhat should we use? Ambien, adderall/meth, valium, ritalin? Natural psychedelics are much more effective that pharmaceutical trash
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- LatteLazy 6y agoWe're basically in the middle of an long epidemic of mental illness in the West. Suicide is the leading cause of death in some age\sex groups. Existing drugs are low efficacy even in ideal cases, and even lower when you look at how they're used in the real world. Then you have to try and factor in side effects. These are the factors I think drive this decision. It's worth noting as well that whether and how severe the various drugs under consideration actually cause the poor outcomes you list remains a matter of debate. Maybe they don't, maybe they do and it's worse than the current worst case prediction. We won't know until exactly these studies are completed... Full disclosure, I have had severe depression long term though I've been doing a lot better for the last 5 years or so.
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y agoShow me a drug which works well for everyone.
- IgorPartola 6y agoVitamin C :)
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y agoHmkay. Wasn't exactly what I had in mind, but technically it counts, I guess.
- BatteryMountain 6y agoI've used dmt, mescaline, psilocybin, thc/cbd and impepho, all in plant form and all in nature/relaxed environments (not trance parties, or for giggles with friends) and some alone at home. As much as I want to tell everyone do it all at least once or to fix x problem (depression?), I don't recommend it and don't talk too much about it with others. The main reason is that they are very unpredictable. You can use the exact same dose a month apart and will have wildly different reactions to it (both during the experience and afterwards (add digestive system weirdness to the list)); Nevermind trying to predict outcomes between different people, even if the dose is the same. And since the experience and some of the effects are based on your current mental landscape, it tends to bring more of what you are to the front (on top of your physical surroundings, sounds, smells). This can good or bad, and sometimes both. Point being that you can permanently alter your mind and body in unpredictable ways. I greatly value my experiences with them but I don't touch them any more because I'm truly afraid of what they are capable of. I don't think I've been damaged by it in the long term. My own experience of course don't invalidate other's experiences or that it has helped people. I just feel that it dangerous in the same way that jamming wet fingers into a broken plugged-in toaster is dangerous. You might get lucky a few times but at some point the toaster will teach you it's ways, and you may never get to enjoy toast again. Well you might, but it might come in through a tube while you are drooling at clay in a mental hospital. One shaman told me to never seek these things out. Wait for it to call you. Learn your lesson and move on. He also said not to push others into it. This is YOUR journey, their time will come sooner or later (meaning different lives, if you are into that). He also said not to try and force the substances/plants/medicines to give you specific knowledge/teachings/truths - they will show you what you need to see. Sorry if I seem conflicted - I both want everyone to do it (hoping it would make the world better via empathy) and nobody to do it (because even a single person suffering a bad trip is not worth the cost (it really is hell x1000000)). Hope it helps the discussion.
- _sillymarketing 6y agoThat is essentially the main study of the today’s time: set & setting. We don’t outright ban these like the way our parents did, but we don’t know how to consistently trigger good outcomes for a variety of personalities. The only way to resolve that is by testing and controlling for set and setting.
- Noos 6y agoI want people who think this is good to do a mental experiment. Forget that this particular drug is LSD. I want you to imagine you are reading an article about a previously unknown drug made by a new company that is touted to have great efficacy in treating mental illness. However, you soon learn that the side effect of this drug is serious hallucinations every time you take it, often serious enough that people recommend that you only take it in the presence of a licensed professional able to deal with the fallout of a hallucinatory episode going bad. Not only this, there is the potential of long lasting and fundamental personality change from it. Not just getting you back to a functional state, but changing who you are as a person. To the point where recreational users take this drug to find quasi-mystical experiences and make themselves a better person. Would you guys really be gung ho about this drug if it were not called LSD and was made by Pfizer in a lab? I'd honestly be scared enough to only even consider it as a last resort to cases where it was impossible to function otherwise. But LSD gets touted way too much as a miracle drug here, even though if any other drug had these side effects, people would try everything but it first.
- pazimzadeh 6y agoYou think it's possible to treat mental illness without "the potential for long lasting and fundamental personality change"? Doesn't everything have the risk of causing "long lasting and fundamental personality change," including traveling to another country? It's just a shift in perspective.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago> but changing who you are as a person That's what everybody should be doing as they experience life. Anyone who doesn't can never grow, improve. > Would you guys really be gung ho about this drug who is being? > I'd honestly be scared enough to only even consider it as a last resort to cases where it was impossible to function Anyone who has deteriorated to where they can't function will try what they can. I've been there. I'm not comfortable with how you're presenting it but I like your thought experiment though, it's a good new perspective on an issue.
- wayneftw 6y agoBefore I did LSD I had heard about the hallucinations, the potential for personality alteration and the possibility of long lasting effects. Those are the exact reasons I dove headfirst into trying it a few times over a summer! If I had heard that it was made by some pharmaceutical company I probably would have stayed far away from it. None of my friends and family where talking about pharmaceutical drugs and even at a young age I already knew that corporate culture did not value my best interests.
- jeffreyrogers 6y agoGiven the number of people who did these or similar drugs in the 60s and 70s and the absolute lack of evidence that these people's mental health is any better than their peers who did not do these drugs, it seems like any therapeutic role for these drugs is likely to be incremental, rather than revolutionary. Anecdotally, the people I know who talk the most about how helpful psychedelics have been for them are less well adjusted than the average person I know.
- LatteLazy 6y agoI believe these drugs are meant to be taken a few times, over a period of a few months, with professional oversight. I mention this because many commenters here seem to think you would take (say) LSD daily for the rest of your life. Or that the fact people have taken it in the past recreationally (unsupervised) and not had great improvements in mental health mean these drugs are overrated!?
- BatteryMountain 6y agoYES! Most of them should definitely not be daily. My own rules: marijuana: not more than once per month (I don't use it as a medicine, so once a month is fine for me) mescaline: not more than once per month (low dose, 3 to 6 teaspoons of dried san pedro powder on a saturday) psilocybin: not more than once per month (low dose below 3 grams) psilocybin: not more than once every 6 months (high dose above 3 grams) dmt: not more than once every 6 months (not smoke, must be in ritual setting with a shaman person) impepho: not more than once a month (typically once every 3 months because of the smell) caffeine: not more than once per week nicotine/alcohol: don't use. All of them are better when in nature and away from work/stress. Do not try to use them to get away from stress or to make you feel better. Feel better first, then use them. I also want to say, don't cross-use them: if you've taken one of the above, wait the same amount of time to pass before using something with similar time: meaning if you use mescaline this month, wait a month before you try marijuana; if you used high dose psilocybin recently, wait 6 months before touching dmt. Reasoning: some of them take time and their effect last longer than the day or two after dosing. Sometimes it's a week, sometimes it's 6 months. I would also not recommend combining them in the same setting or using them when you are on chronic medications (from a Dr) due to unpredictable interactions that may or may not be safe. So the idea of using LSD daily like people are popping normal pills.. probably not a good idea at all.