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> I see there the typical pattern of the 'expert beginner' developer. I see the typical pattern of someone being a jerk calling people "junior developers" with

> I see there the typical pattern of the 'expert beginner' developer. I see the typical pattern of someone being a jerk calling people "junior developers" without first doing their research on the person and finding out (1) how long they have been a developer and (2) the work that they have created. Debate why the methods are incorrect instead of saying "you look ugly". The author has a completely different development environment than you that supports this paradigm (https://nbdev.fast.ai/ https://nbdev.fast.ai/) that you likely you aren't using. If you read the docs of the library references to this is well documented. However, that isn't going to be apparent to someone who engages in drive-by comments without doing the proper research. And yes, it does look like a personal attack. Stop it with the lazy take and actually try to read before jumping to conclusions.

afarrell 6y ago
I agree with the core of greatgib's comment but disagree with framing around the person. The problem is not with the developer. We're all trying to write code to help each other grapple with complexity. The problem is with the effect that `import *` has on others' experience of trying to orient themselves to a codebase. ------------- One of the great things about python is that when you see a variable or method name, you can look up and see where it comes from. This genuinely reduces the cognitive cost of reading a python codebase. Throwing that away has a real impact on people. I'll own that part of my reaction comes from the fact that I've been writing ruby professionally for 4 years now and I miss python namespaces ever so terribly.
greatgib 6y ago
As I stated, my goal was not to say something like "you look ugly", and I did not want to pretend that he is a "junior developer". What I said is that from his comments, and based on my personal experience, I think that we are in a case of an "expert beginner" as described by this blog: https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-the-expert-beginner/ https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-th... The meaning of that is probably better explained in the blog post than by me here. But if I would try to summarize the idea, it is like some people that think that they are the smartest devs because they create "code generators" and some very complex code/machinery, when in fact the problem is their useless complexity, and that a good dev would do something a lot simpler. If we look at the "import " case, this guy is pretending that he knows better; that it is a "better/cleaner way" to do python code. But, saying that, he contradicts the very large experience of a lot of really experienced devs and even the spirit of the Python language. https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/ << Wildcard imports (from <module> import ) should be avoided, as they make it unclear which names are present in the namespace, confusing both readers and many automated tools. >> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ (Zen of Python) << Explicit is better than implicit. Simple is better than complex. ... In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess. >> Probably not exhaustive, but a blog post attempting to explain the kind of issues to be expected with "import *": https://medium.com/@s16h/importing-star-in-python-88fe9e8bd4d2 https://medium.com/@s16h/importing-star-in-python-88fe9e8bd4... So, even if it is a little bit arbitrary, when someone declare "extending Python" to improve it but does not understand the basic design ideas behind Python, I have the feeling that I'm facing an "Expert beginner".
- afarrell 6y ago
  As I say in my sibling comment to the above, I agree with the core of what you say about OP's code. I share your values about how code should be written, so I'd like to give you a conceptual tool that I've found makes me a more powerful advocate for the things I value. You say this and there is no good reason to doubt you: > my goal was not to say something like "you look ugly" But do your words _achieve_ that goal? You can judge the probability that I and others are wrong to say no. You can judge your comfort with that risk. You can judge if using this mental model would make others really listen to you: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Words often lead people to hold ideas in their mind. You want your words to do that. To have influence means that when someone else goes to make relevant a choice, your words are the mixtape that plays in their mind. In order to for brains to do things, they need to anticipate some reward -- a feeling of discovery, relief, vindication, determination, clarity. If you imagine your words playing in someone's head, you can make a guess at what will give them that feeling. Succeed, and folks want to keep reading and keep considering your ideas. Words have power. And the most powerful words to a person conjures ideas about who that person is -- or who they can grow to be. Following that, words merely about what people did or can do also have power. Following that, are words about nonliving objects. * Identity * Action * Objects So what do you think plays in the mind of someone who initially likes Fastcore and reads "Some people that think that they are the smartest devs because they create "code generators" and some very complex code/machinery, when in fact the problem is their useless complexity, and that a good dev would do something a lot simpler."? Pay attention to some of the words there: > the smartest devs > a good dev These are both statements about Identity. "Who is she?" - "Not a good dev." Imagine that I thought that these things that Fastcore are good ideas. Then to hold these ideas in mind requires me to endure for a little bit of time the thought that I am the opposite of a smart dev or good dev. When I am my wisest self, whatever. They're just you words, who cares about them? But when I am a bit more of a suggestible mood, planting that idea in my mind prompts an aggressive rejection from my ego. Is my ego response your problem? Not unless you choose to care about how much your words influence my thought. > this guy is pretending that he knows better To call someone a liar is a powerful way to make an enemy. I can work with someone who thinks I am mistaken or that I've failed. Science and Engineering draw their power from a keen understanding of error and failure. But someone who will be lightning-quick to judge me a liar? I cannot trust them any more than they can trust me. So my advice this: Read your words and exercise care over what they say about a person, their intent, and their actions. ------------------------------------------------------ Do I always do this? No, not at all. This is a discipline -- and I am many things but I am not a disciplined man. Does this always succeed? No, but when it fails, it fails in better ways. Is thinking like this manipulative? Well, it genuinely can be: I am talking about power after all. But thinking like this can also stop you from using the power of your words carelessly. ... or not. The only thing that can stop you from using any power for evil is your own sense of responsibility to clarity, kindness, or truthfulness.

afarrell 6y ago

I agree with the core of greatgib's comment but disagree with framing around the person. The problem is not with the developer. We're all trying to write code to help each other grapple with complexity. The problem is with the effect that `import *` has on others' experience of trying to orient themselves to a codebase. ------------- One of the great things about python is that when you see a variable or method name, you can look up and see where it comes from. This genuinely reduces the cognitive cost of reading a python codebase. Throwing that away has a real impact on people. I'll own that part of my reaction comes from the fact that I've been writing ruby professionally for 4 years now and I miss python namespaces ever so terribly.

greatgib 6y ago

As I stated, my goal was not to say something like "you look ugly", and I did not want to pretend that he is a "junior developer". What I said is that from his comments, and based on my personal experience, I think that we are in a case of an "expert beginner" as described by this blog: https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-the-expert-beginner/ https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-th... The meaning of that is probably better explained in the blog post than by me here. But if I would try to summarize the idea, it is like some people that think that they are the smartest devs because they create "code generators" and some very complex code/machinery, when in fact the problem is their useless complexity, and that a good dev would do something a lot simpler. If we look at the "import " case, this guy is pretending that he knows better; that it is a "better/cleaner way" to do python code. But, saying that, he contradicts the very large experience of a lot of really experienced devs and even the spirit of the Python language. https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/ << Wildcard imports (from <module> import ) should be avoided, as they make it unclear which names are present in the namespace, confusing both readers and many automated tools. >> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ (Zen of Python) << Explicit is better than implicit. Simple is better than complex. ... In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess. >> Probably not exhaustive, but a blog post attempting to explain the kind of issues to be expected with "import *": https://medium.com/@s16h/importing-star-in-python-88fe9e8bd4d2 https://medium.com/@s16h/importing-star-in-python-88fe9e8bd4... So, even if it is a little bit arbitrary, when someone declare "extending Python" to improve it but does not understand the basic design ideas behind Python, I have the feeling that I'm facing an "Expert beginner".

afarrell 6y ago
As I say in my sibling comment to the above, I agree with the core of what you say about OP's code. I share your values about how code should be written, so I'd like to give you a conceptual tool that I've found makes me a more powerful advocate for the things I value. You say this and there is no good reason to doubt you: > my goal was not to say something like "you look ugly" But do your words _achieve_ that goal? You can judge the probability that I and others are wrong to say no. You can judge your comfort with that risk. You can judge if using this mental model would make others really listen to you: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Words often lead people to hold ideas in their mind. You want your words to do that. To have influence means that when someone else goes to make relevant a choice, your words are the mixtape that plays in their mind. In order to for brains to do things, they need to anticipate some reward -- a feeling of discovery, relief, vindication, determination, clarity. If you imagine your words playing in someone's head, you can make a guess at what will give them that feeling. Succeed, and folks want to keep reading and keep considering your ideas. Words have power. And the most powerful words to a person conjures ideas about who that person is -- or who they can grow to be. Following that, words merely about what people did or can do also have power. Following that, are words about nonliving objects. * Identity * Action * Objects So what do you think plays in the mind of someone who initially likes Fastcore and reads "Some people that think that they are the smartest devs because they create "code generators" and some very complex code/machinery, when in fact the problem is their useless complexity, and that a good dev would do something a lot simpler."? Pay attention to some of the words there: > the smartest devs > a good dev These are both statements about Identity. "Who is she?" - "Not a good dev." Imagine that I thought that these things that Fastcore are good ideas. Then to hold these ideas in mind requires me to endure for a little bit of time the thought that I am the opposite of a smart dev or good dev. When I am my wisest self, whatever. They're just you words, who cares about them? But when I am a bit more of a suggestible mood, planting that idea in my mind prompts an aggressive rejection from my ego. Is my ego response your problem? Not unless you choose to care about how much your words influence my thought. > this guy is pretending that he knows better To call someone a liar is a powerful way to make an enemy. I can work with someone who thinks I am mistaken or that I've failed. Science and Engineering draw their power from a keen understanding of error and failure. But someone who will be lightning-quick to judge me a liar? I cannot trust them any more than they can trust me. So my advice this: Read your words and exercise care over what they say about a person, their intent, and their actions. ------------------------------------------------------ Do I always do this? No, not at all. This is a discipline -- and I am many things but I am not a disciplined man. Does this always succeed? No, but when it fails, it fails in better ways. Is thinking like this manipulative? Well, it genuinely can be: I am talking about power after all. But thinking like this can also stop you from using the power of your words carelessly. ... or not. The only thing that can stop you from using any power for evil is your own sense of responsibility to clarity, kindness, or truthfulness.