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If you want to consider the success of LKY’s first principles, you should probably consider what they are. Free market economics, low taxation, user pays health

If you want to consider the success of LKY’s first principles, you should probably consider what they are. Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Singapore is a mostly-benevolent, mostly-single-party state, with rather poor individual freedoms, but an approach to economic liberty and self-reliance that would be considered extremist in most of the west.

nine_zeros 6y ago
> Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Did you just pull this out of your arse? I don't know if you need training in google fu or just plain ol calling out on bullshit. At least google what they do with healthcare and immigration (for a country smaller than nyc)
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  I used to live in Singapore. I’m particularly familiar with how they do things. > No minimum wage > As a matter of national policy, MOM does not prescribe minimum wages for all workers in Singapore, whether local or foreign. Whether wages should increase or decrease is best determined by market demand and supply for labour. https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-permit-for-foreign-worker/is-there-a-prescribed-minimum-wage-for-foreign-workers-in-singapore https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-permit-for-foreign-worker/is... > User pays healthcare Government offers a partially subsidised health insurance plan. But you have to apply and pay for it yourself. https://www.sgmoneymatters.com/medishield-life/ https://www.sgmoneymatters.com/medishield-life/ > restrictive welfare entitlements Singapore doesn’t have an unemployment benefit. You can get a few months worth of assistance if you lose your job. The closest it has is ComCare, which is mostly reserved for invalids. https://www.msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx https://www.msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx > restrictive immigration Singapore immigration policy has always focused on maximizing employment for Singaporeans https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/singapores-ministry-manpower-revises-rules-hiring-foreign-employees/ https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/singapores-ministry-manpo... Probably also worth noting, they don’t accept refugees: https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5a12da0a2.pdf https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5a12da0a2.pdf > low taxes Singapore is considered a tax haven by many people. https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/Individuals/Locals/Working-Out-Your-Taxes/Income-Tax-Rates/ https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/Individuals/Locals/Working-... > Free market economics It is considered to have the highest economic freedom in the world https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom Singapore is basically an economic libertarian utopia. It is a case study in the effect of uncompromising free market economics.
  - ValentineC 6y ago
    > Government offers a partially subsidised health insurance plan. But you have to apply and pay for it yourself. Small correction: MediShield Life is compulsory and automatic for Singapore citizens and permanent residents.
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      Ah yes. This is correct. That became mandatory after I left. MedShield Life is still quite restrictive in what it covers though. Even with half the population having additional private insurance, about a third of medical expenditure is out of pocket. A consistent point of controversy in Singapore is how much MediShield funds the government keeps in surplus reserve. Total medical expenditure in Singapore is also suppressed somewhat by people choosing not to have treatment. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/some-kidney-patients-refuse-treatment-and-choose-to-die https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/some-kidney-patients-...
  - nine_zeros 6y ago
    I have extended family in Singapore. I can assure you that the approach is not some libertarian utopia and neither is it some oligarchic capitalistic system sucker. It is designed to be practical and constantly adapt to reality. Today, that means a mixed economy. That means basic human decency will be taken care of by government, the remaining is market driven. This means housing, food subsidies, education and healthcare is readily made available by the government, not just through price controls. Look up property rights there. That means high taxes on vehicles, use it to develop a world class mass transit system. That means, lower taxes on foreign businesses to come operate in Singapore, no xenophobia shown to skilled workers (barring their geographic limitations). This has the consequence of raising high value domestic activity, thus providing locals jobs. They cannot accept refugees because of size. That means they absolutely want to be integrated with the outside world, because they realize they absolutely cannot produce everything. Again, can't have xenophobia. That means lower income taxes because the government doesn't need more money. They have already ensured that cost of living (housing and healthcare) is so low that no one will be bankrupt with routine medical procedures or no insurance scams and medical codes that will suddenly no the covered. Frankly, sometimes people forget how much work the government has put in there to actually make life so easy that the government doesn't need to be the frankenstein like US govt is. It's a matter of approach. The government wants to take care of people, not leave them wondering if they will be covered in the next crisis.
outside1234 6y ago
This is just not true. There are very high levels of immigration allowed at all levels of society: from prostitute to executive. And I am not sure that any system that basically subsidizes housing at the level they do can be claimed to be a restrictive welfare society.
- destory-everyth 6y ago
  It’s very controlled beyond prostitutes , helpers (maids) and labourers. They even specify which race and sex can do which job . Construction bangledesh (and some others) under 60. You must employ 1 local at 1400 a month to employ 7 Bangladeshi with no minimum wage and house them 24 to a room in what they call a dormitory , some might call a labour camp where COVID was out of control. Helper , female under 50 https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-foreign-domestic-worker/eligibility-and-requirements/fdw-eligibility https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-fo... sourced from certain country’s only , At the professional and executive level it has been capped at about 200k and lowering for the last 10 years (out of about 6mil )
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  By subsidize housing you mean that the government builds housing which they then sell to citizens. Which is a form of middle class welfare, but quite different from what most westerners would consider subsidized housing. If you’re unemployed in Singapore, you get 3 months worth of welfare from the government. After that you rely on your own savings. (Unless you’re permanently disabled)
  - chillacy 6y ago
    Going from first principles though, Singapore has a large ethnically Chinese population which tends to take care of family members / elders more than in the west. Unless western countries are willing to adopt a culture of filial piety where you can live with your parents until you’re married and your parents expect you to take care of them in old age, I don’t see them replicating that feature.

nine_zeros 6y ago

> Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Did you just pull this out of your arse? I don't know if you need training in google fu or just plain ol calling out on bullshit. At least google what they do with healthcare and immigration (for a country smaller than nyc)

AmericanChopper 6y ago
I used to live in Singapore. I’m particularly familiar with how they do things. > No minimum wage > As a matter of national policy, MOM does not prescribe minimum wages for all workers in Singapore, whether local or foreign. Whether wages should increase or decrease is best determined by market demand and supply for labour. https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-permit-for-foreign-worker/is-there-a-prescribed-minimum-wage-for-foreign-workers-in-singapore https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-permit-for-foreign-worker/is... > User pays healthcare Government offers a partially subsidised health insurance plan. But you have to apply and pay for it yourself. https://www.sgmoneymatters.com/medishield-life/ https://www.sgmoneymatters.com/medishield-life/ > restrictive welfare entitlements Singapore doesn’t have an unemployment benefit. You can get a few months worth of assistance if you lose your job. The closest it has is ComCare, which is mostly reserved for invalids. https://www.msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx https://www.msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx > restrictive immigration Singapore immigration policy has always focused on maximizing employment for Singaporeans https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/singapores-ministry-manpower-revises-rules-hiring-foreign-employees/ https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/singapores-ministry-manpo... Probably also worth noting, they don’t accept refugees: https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5a12da0a2.pdf https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5a12da0a2.pdf > low taxes Singapore is considered a tax haven by many people. https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/Individuals/Locals/Working-Out-Your-Taxes/Income-Tax-Rates/ https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/Individuals/Locals/Working-... > Free market economics It is considered to have the highest economic freedom in the world https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom Singapore is basically an economic libertarian utopia. It is a case study in the effect of uncompromising free market economics.
- ValentineC 6y ago
  > Government offers a partially subsidised health insurance plan. But you have to apply and pay for it yourself. Small correction: MediShield Life is compulsory and automatic for Singapore citizens and permanent residents.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    Ah yes. This is correct. That became mandatory after I left. MedShield Life is still quite restrictive in what it covers though. Even with half the population having additional private insurance, about a third of medical expenditure is out of pocket. A consistent point of controversy in Singapore is how much MediShield funds the government keeps in surplus reserve. Total medical expenditure in Singapore is also suppressed somewhat by people choosing not to have treatment. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/some-kidney-patients-refuse-treatment-and-choose-to-die https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/some-kidney-patients-...
- nine_zeros 6y ago
  I have extended family in Singapore. I can assure you that the approach is not some libertarian utopia and neither is it some oligarchic capitalistic system sucker. It is designed to be practical and constantly adapt to reality. Today, that means a mixed economy. That means basic human decency will be taken care of by government, the remaining is market driven. This means housing, food subsidies, education and healthcare is readily made available by the government, not just through price controls. Look up property rights there. That means high taxes on vehicles, use it to develop a world class mass transit system. That means, lower taxes on foreign businesses to come operate in Singapore, no xenophobia shown to skilled workers (barring their geographic limitations). This has the consequence of raising high value domestic activity, thus providing locals jobs. They cannot accept refugees because of size. That means they absolutely want to be integrated with the outside world, because they realize they absolutely cannot produce everything. Again, can't have xenophobia. That means lower income taxes because the government doesn't need more money. They have already ensured that cost of living (housing and healthcare) is so low that no one will be bankrupt with routine medical procedures or no insurance scams and medical codes that will suddenly no the covered. Frankly, sometimes people forget how much work the government has put in there to actually make life so easy that the government doesn't need to be the frankenstein like US govt is. It's a matter of approach. The government wants to take care of people, not leave them wondering if they will be covered in the next crisis.

outside1234 6y ago

This is just not true. There are very high levels of immigration allowed at all levels of society: from prostitute to executive. And I am not sure that any system that basically subsidizes housing at the level they do can be claimed to be a restrictive welfare society.

destory-everyth 6y ago
It’s very controlled beyond prostitutes , helpers (maids) and labourers. They even specify which race and sex can do which job . Construction bangledesh (and some others) under 60. You must employ 1 local at 1400 a month to employ 7 Bangladeshi with no minimum wage and house them 24 to a room in what they call a dormitory , some might call a labour camp where COVID was out of control. Helper , female under 50 https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-foreign-domestic-worker/eligibility-and-requirements/fdw-eligibility https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-fo... sourced from certain country’s only , At the professional and executive level it has been capped at about 200k and lowering for the last 10 years (out of about 6mil )
AmericanChopper 6y ago
By subsidize housing you mean that the government builds housing which they then sell to citizens. Which is a form of middle class welfare, but quite different from what most westerners would consider subsidized housing. If you’re unemployed in Singapore, you get 3 months worth of welfare from the government. After that you rely on your own savings. (Unless you’re permanently disabled)
- chillacy 6y ago
  Going from first principles though, Singapore has a large ethnically Chinese population which tends to take care of family members / elders more than in the west. Unless western countries are willing to adopt a culture of filial piety where you can live with your parents until you’re married and your parents expect you to take care of them in old age, I don’t see them replicating that feature.