5 ms·

Northwestern Point of the Lake of the Woods

119 points by Thevet 6y ago

matthewmcg 6y ago
This is great. The treaty referred to the “northwestern most point” when everyone thought the lake was more or less round but in practice there is no single unambiguous resolution. When I return to work, I want to put a print of the annotated 1912 survey map (showing all of the various compromises and treaty amendments) on my office wall as a reminder that all contract language is, at some level, an imprecise abstraction.
- ta1234567890 6y ago
  > all contract language is, at some level, an imprecise abstraction Great insight. And more generally, all language is an imprecise abstraction.
jatsign 6y ago
Reminds of software development estimation. You start out with a rough "ballpark" idea of the task and say it will take about 10 days. Then you actually start the task and realize how screwed you are. And then your manager thinks you're an idiot because you said 10 days and it's 150 years later and required a treaty with Canada to resolve.
- Stratoscope 6y ago
  There is a great story on Quora related to this: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-software-development-task-estimations-regularly-off-by-a-factor-of-2-3/answer/Michael-Wolfe https://www.quora.com/Why-are-software-development-task-esti...
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  > Reminds of software development estimation. You start out with a rough "ballpark" idea of the task and say it will take about 10 days. Then you actually start the task and realize how screwed you are. Every time I wrap up my quarterly planning, I'm always reminded of this and how futile it is to make ballpark suggestions when the only thing you have is a one or two sentence idea.
sandworm101 6y ago
There is a great youtube video on this and similar can-US border irregularities. Search for "Canada-US no touching zone". There is another exclave near vancouver. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkYlIA7mgw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkYlIA7mgw
- ticmasta 6y ago
  I grew up in Tsawwassen in the late 70's & early 80's and Pt. Roberts was nothing like today; you could buy property for next to nothing, but why would anyone want a swamp shack in the middle of nowhere? I remember a neighbour who used to ride his bike to the border, walk across the "no touch" zone and buy cheap pipe tobacco - try that today and see what happens!
- TimSchumann 6y ago
  Peace Arch Park is the place you mentioned on the border crossing between Bellingham, WA and Vancouver, BC. A good friend and his wife, who is Canadian, are really grateful for that loophole. They were able to meet their newborn niece recently because of that park, despite the border being closed.
  - dan_quixote 6y ago
    sandworm101 was referring to Point Roberts about 10 miles west of Peace Arch Park: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington
    - TimSchumann 6y ago
      Actually re-watched the video and realized that not ten minutes ago. It is nice that places like Peace Arch Park exist though.
- temp0826 6y ago
  My favorite border dispute is Hans Island- https://freehansisland.com/ https://freehansisland.com/
sdoering 6y ago
Thanks for sharing. Through "link-hopping", researching one of the named figures I stumbled upon quite some interesting theories and learned quite a lot today. So this gem of trivia provided quite a great procrastination.
aulneau_ 6y ago
Funny to see this on hn, I worked at a canoeing camp in Lake of the woods, and as such have spent a good amount of time in the northwest angle. I've even sung a rendition of proud Mary in the northern most bar of the contiguous US.
- 52-6F-62 6y ago
  Can't speak for those Muskeg-walking Manitobans, but we still like Creedence here in Ontario
Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
As someone whose line of work is land titles and surveying, this is particularly interesting! Good find.
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  Would love an AMA from you. Property law is surely some of the oldest law, and how we define and understand boundaries and ownership must come with so may interesting dives into old laws, deeds, titles, etc.
  - Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
    I'd be happy to, except that I'm Australian... I might not have relevant enough insight for most HN'ers!
acheron 6y ago
Another consequence of incomplete geography and unclear surveying was the Toledo War between Ohio and the Michigan Territory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War In the end, the loser was Wisconsin: Ohio got Toledo and Michigan got the UP.
cwmma 6y ago
see the wedge [1] for a similar situation inside the US. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_(border) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_(border)
acwan93 6y ago
There's a number of irregularities between the US and Canadian border. Johnny Harris, who used to (still is? seems unclear) film the Vox series "Borders", did a video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvvicd07zCs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvvicd07zCs Basically, the border is largely the 49th parallel and some seemingly arbitrary lines on the East Coast and Alaska. But since they were done in the 18th/19th century without regard for existing settlements, it leads to some crazy enclaves and border towns: -Point Roberts, WA [1] -Piney Pinecreek Border Airport (K48Y) [2] -Hyder, AK [3] -Estcourt Station, ME [4] -Derby Line, VT [5] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piney_Pinecreek_Border_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piney_Pinecreek_Border_Airport [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyder,_Alaska https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyder,_Alaska [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estcourt_Station,_Maine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estcourt_Station,_Maine [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_Line,_Vermont https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_Line,_Vermont
- paledot 6y ago
  I live in Montreal, which is 6 hours' drive due north of NYC. It is actually farther south than Portland, OR. In fact, by far the majority of Canada's population is south of the 49th parallel. The border is weird to the east.
  - acwan93 6y ago
    There's also Detroit, MI and Windsor, ON, which is the only land border crossing where you go south into Canada and north into the US.
bloat 6y ago
Baarle-Nassau - The town is the site of a complicated borderline between Belgium and Netherlands, with numerous small exclaves of Belgium, of which some contain counter-exclaves of the Netherlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau

119 points by Thevet 6y ago

This is great. The treaty referred to the “northwestern most point” when everyone thought the lake was more or less round but in practice there is no single unambiguous resolution. When I return to work, I want to put a print of the annotated 1912 survey map (showing all of the various compromises and treaty amendments) on my office wall as a reminder that all contract language is, at some level, an imprecise abstraction.

ta1234567890 6y ago
> all contract language is, at some level, an imprecise abstraction Great insight. And more generally, all language is an imprecise abstraction.

jatsign 6y ago

Reminds of software development estimation. You start out with a rough "ballpark" idea of the task and say it will take about 10 days. Then you actually start the task and realize how screwed you are. And then your manager thinks you're an idiot because you said 10 days and it's 150 years later and required a treaty with Canada to resolve.

Stratoscope 6y ago
There is a great story on Quora related to this: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-software-development-task-estimations-regularly-off-by-a-factor-of-2-3/answer/Michael-Wolfe https://www.quora.com/Why-are-software-development-task-esti...
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
> Reminds of software development estimation. You start out with a rough "ballpark" idea of the task and say it will take about 10 days. Then you actually start the task and realize how screwed you are. Every time I wrap up my quarterly planning, I'm always reminded of this and how futile it is to make ballpark suggestions when the only thing you have is a one or two sentence idea.

sandworm101 6y ago

There is a great youtube video on this and similar can-US border irregularities. Search for "Canada-US no touching zone". There is another exclave near vancouver. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkYlIA7mgw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkYlIA7mgw

ticmasta 6y ago
I grew up in Tsawwassen in the late 70's & early 80's and Pt. Roberts was nothing like today; you could buy property for next to nothing, but why would anyone want a swamp shack in the middle of nowhere? I remember a neighbour who used to ride his bike to the border, walk across the "no touch" zone and buy cheap pipe tobacco - try that today and see what happens!
TimSchumann 6y ago
Peace Arch Park is the place you mentioned on the border crossing between Bellingham, WA and Vancouver, BC. A good friend and his wife, who is Canadian, are really grateful for that loophole. They were able to meet their newborn niece recently because of that park, despite the border being closed.
- dan_quixote 6y ago
  sandworm101 was referring to Point Roberts about 10 miles west of Peace Arch Park: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington
  - TimSchumann 6y ago
    Actually re-watched the video and realized that not ten minutes ago. It is nice that places like Peace Arch Park exist though.
temp0826 6y ago
My favorite border dispute is Hans Island- https://freehansisland.com/ https://freehansisland.com/

sdoering 6y ago

Thanks for sharing. Through "link-hopping", researching one of the named figures I stumbled upon quite some interesting theories and learned quite a lot today. So this gem of trivia provided quite a great procrastination.

aulneau_ 6y ago

Funny to see this on hn, I worked at a canoeing camp in Lake of the woods, and as such have spent a good amount of time in the northwest angle. I've even sung a rendition of proud Mary in the northern most bar of the contiguous US.

52-6F-62 6y ago
Can't speak for those Muskeg-walking Manitobans, but we still like Creedence here in Ontario

Wolfenstein98k 6y ago

As someone whose line of work is land titles and surveying, this is particularly interesting! Good find.

mauvehaus 6y ago
Would love an AMA from you. Property law is surely some of the oldest law, and how we define and understand boundaries and ownership must come with so may interesting dives into old laws, deeds, titles, etc.
- Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
  I'd be happy to, except that I'm Australian... I might not have relevant enough insight for most HN'ers!

acheron 6y ago

Another consequence of incomplete geography and unclear surveying was the Toledo War between Ohio and the Michigan Territory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War In the end, the loser was Wisconsin: Ohio got Toledo and Michigan got the UP.

cwmma 6y ago

see the wedge [1] for a similar situation inside the US. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_(border) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_(border)

acwan93 6y ago

There's a number of irregularities between the US and Canadian border. Johnny Harris, who used to (still is? seems unclear) film the Vox series "Borders", did a video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvvicd07zCs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvvicd07zCs Basically, the border is largely the 49th parallel and some seemingly arbitrary lines on the East Coast and Alaska. But since they were done in the 18th/19th century without regard for existing settlements, it leads to some crazy enclaves and border towns: -Point Roberts, WA [1] -Piney Pinecreek Border Airport (K48Y) [2] -Hyder, AK [3] -Estcourt Station, ME [4] -Derby Line, VT [5] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piney_Pinecreek_Border_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piney_Pinecreek_Border_Airport [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyder,_Alaska https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyder,_Alaska [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estcourt_Station,_Maine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estcourt_Station,_Maine [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_Line,_Vermont https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_Line,_Vermont

paledot 6y ago
I live in Montreal, which is 6 hours' drive due north of NYC. It is actually farther south than Portland, OR. In fact, by far the majority of Canada's population is south of the 49th parallel. The border is weird to the east.
- acwan93 6y ago
  There's also Detroit, MI and Windsor, ON, which is the only land border crossing where you go south into Canada and north into the US.

bloat 6y ago

Baarle-Nassau - The town is the site of a complicated borderline between Belgium and Netherlands, with numerous small exclaves of Belgium, of which some contain counter-exclaves of the Netherlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau