3 ms·

To me there's a sort of a Bayesian logic working against any hypothetical "adult novice puts in 10,000 hours of work and becomes a pro" story, which is that any

by dfan 16y ago

To me there's a sort of a Bayesian logic working against any hypothetical "adult novice puts in 10,000 hours of work and becomes a pro" story, which is that anyone who has the willpower and passion to put in that much work probably has already. If you are so excited about a sport/instrument/game/hobby that you're willing to put 10,000 hours into it starting from scratch, why weren't you working on it before? I recently mentioned reading an amazing music theory book and someone asked me if it had lots of prerequisites or if he could understand it. My response was "It doesn't really require previous theory knowledge, but if you weren't excited enough about music theory to have acquired that other knowledge already, I doubt this book is going to be that interesting to you."

austintaylor 16y ago
What was the name of the music theory book? Seriously interested.
- dfan 16y ago
  "A Geometry of Music: Harmony and Counterpoint in the Extended Common Practice" by Dmitri Tymoczko.
scythe 16y ago
This seems logical. It doesn't seem shocking to propose that considering the way he went about this 10000-hour experiment decision, he'll soon find something new to worry about and quit before he finishes.
axefrog 16y ago
Sounds reasonable, but what about the fact that there are a great many more pursuits in life that one might enjoy, but simply hasn't had enough time to investigate, or simply has not yet been exposed to sufficiently to recognise the enjoyment that comes from pursuing it?
- dfan 16y ago
  Well, there is a pretty large difference between enjoying something and dedicating a giant chunk of your life to it. But in any case, I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying why it's unlikely.
  - axefrog 16y ago
    I'm just saying that in life there are so many hours in each day and we tend to gravitate towards not just what we enjoy, but what we are more competent at (and thus more confident and comfortable with), which means whatever interest gains early traction is likely to take over at the expense of the other interests we may have otherwise focussed on.
  - GreenNight 16y ago
    Sometimes you discover things you love "late" in your life. I always have loved dancing, but only did that in discos and partying, taking no classes. Then I started going to some classes (bollywood dancing) in 2008. That wasn't it yet. September 2009 I started doing lindy hop, I love it. If I could devote even more time to it I would, but it's hard to do with a full-time job that pays for the dancing and some family debt. I was 34 then, and some time later I started keeping an approximate account of how much have I done, classes and social dancing, to have an idea of how much it would take to get to the 10k hours to be really good(yeah, I heard of it too). Now I have about around 694 hours of lindy-related dances (287 classes, 309 social, 91 solo charleston and some tap, blues to the side) and I'm starting to be good enough to recognise most of my failings without help. It's not as impressive as what he does, but it's about 11 hours of dancing a week this year, while keeping a full-time job, being a bit sleep-deprived because of night parties, and trying to live as frugal as I can in order to have money for classes, international workshops and parties almost every day of the week. Yeah, this means that if this (10k hours) is true I'd need a bit more than 20 years to get to be exceptional. Well, at least I will get good at this thing I love.
tygorius 16y ago
Ah, but for Dan it's not just a golf thing, it's a dedicated practice thing as well. Whereas before he had tried things as experiments and (at least in the field of commercial photography) become competent, this time the measures of success include not just acquired skill but also the duration of focused practice. As his family and advisors reported in the article, this isn't just different from what he's done before, it's different from what most (all?) people have done before.
nimblegorilla 16y ago
I agree slightly with your point, but I most adults have hundreds hours of time spent doing new activities that they didn't get to do as a child. So if someone "discovers" painting in their 20s or 30s maybe it is feasible to be a great painter 10 years later.
- xiaoma 16y ago
  Grandma Moses didn't start painting until her late 70's and she was successful enough to have a New York holiday in her honor on her 100th birthday.
sayemm 16y ago
Great point and spot-on, I think. Also, you mentioning that music theory book reminds me of what SICP is for programming. I haven't read "Outliers" yet, but from what I've gathered about it I think the biggest thing Gladwell fails to mention is the single-minded drive and zealous mission that's inherent in true outliers. Read the biography of any extraordinary performer (Buffett, Steve Jobs, Rockefeller, Ted Williams, Michael Jackson...) and you get the sense that they were willing to die for it. They didn't do it to test theories or even test their potential. Their craft defined their entire existence. It was their all and everything, it was their life.
gommm 16y ago
What is the good music theory book in question?

by dfan 16y ago

austintaylor 16y ago

What was the name of the music theory book? Seriously interested.

dfan 16y ago
"A Geometry of Music: Harmony and Counterpoint in the Extended Common Practice" by Dmitri Tymoczko.

scythe 16y ago

This seems logical. It doesn't seem shocking to propose that considering the way he went about this 10000-hour experiment decision, he'll soon find something new to worry about and quit before he finishes.

axefrog 16y ago

Sounds reasonable, but what about the fact that there are a great many more pursuits in life that one might enjoy, but simply hasn't had enough time to investigate, or simply has not yet been exposed to sufficiently to recognise the enjoyment that comes from pursuing it?

dfan 16y ago
Well, there is a pretty large difference between enjoying something and dedicating a giant chunk of your life to it. But in any case, I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying why it's unlikely.
- axefrog 16y ago
  I'm just saying that in life there are so many hours in each day and we tend to gravitate towards not just what we enjoy, but what we are more competent at (and thus more confident and comfortable with), which means whatever interest gains early traction is likely to take over at the expense of the other interests we may have otherwise focussed on.
- GreenNight 16y ago
  Sometimes you discover things you love "late" in your life. I always have loved dancing, but only did that in discos and partying, taking no classes. Then I started going to some classes (bollywood dancing) in 2008. That wasn't it yet. September 2009 I started doing lindy hop, I love it. If I could devote even more time to it I would, but it's hard to do with a full-time job that pays for the dancing and some family debt. I was 34 then, and some time later I started keeping an approximate account of how much have I done, classes and social dancing, to have an idea of how much it would take to get to the 10k hours to be really good(yeah, I heard of it too). Now I have about around 694 hours of lindy-related dances (287 classes, 309 social, 91 solo charleston and some tap, blues to the side) and I'm starting to be good enough to recognise most of my failings without help. It's not as impressive as what he does, but it's about 11 hours of dancing a week this year, while keeping a full-time job, being a bit sleep-deprived because of night parties, and trying to live as frugal as I can in order to have money for classes, international workshops and parties almost every day of the week. Yeah, this means that if this (10k hours) is true I'd need a bit more than 20 years to get to be exceptional. Well, at least I will get good at this thing I love.

tygorius 16y ago

Ah, but for Dan it's not just a golf thing, it's a dedicated practice thing as well. Whereas before he had tried things as experiments and (at least in the field of commercial photography) become competent, this time the measures of success include not just acquired skill but also the duration of focused practice. As his family and advisors reported in the article, this isn't just different from what he's done before, it's different from what most (all?) people have done before.

nimblegorilla 16y ago

I agree slightly with your point, but I most adults have hundreds hours of time spent doing new activities that they didn't get to do as a child. So if someone "discovers" painting in their 20s or 30s maybe it is feasible to be a great painter 10 years later.

xiaoma 16y ago
Grandma Moses didn't start painting until her late 70's and she was successful enough to have a New York holiday in her honor on her 100th birthday.

sayemm 16y ago

Great point and spot-on, I think. Also, you mentioning that music theory book reminds me of what SICP is for programming. I haven't read "Outliers" yet, but from what I've gathered about it I think the biggest thing Gladwell fails to mention is the single-minded drive and zealous mission that's inherent in true outliers. Read the biography of any extraordinary performer (Buffett, Steve Jobs, Rockefeller, Ted Williams, Michael Jackson...) and you get the sense that they were willing to die for it. They didn't do it to test theories or even test their potential. Their craft defined their entire existence. It was their all and everything, it was their life.

gommm 16y ago

What is the good music theory book in question?