5 ms·

Thanks for creating the thought experiment. Let’s keep using that as an example. This is not a case where companies decided to create a benefit arbitrarily or t

Thanks for creating the thought experiment. Let’s keep using that as an example. This is not a case where companies decided to create a benefit arbitrarily or to make employment at the company more attractive to workers. This was the world responding to an unexpected disruption to almost every area of life. As part of that, parents had an immediate need that could not wait to be met- caring for their children. This, in my mental model, is closer to someone taking leave to deal with a physical or mental health issue vs. someone taking time off voluntarily. If your colleague were to take time off to deal with a severe physical or mental health issue, would you have the same complaints about not getting an immediate increase in compensation for picking up some extra work or also not being able to take time off? I suspect that over time you might have a conversation with your manager about the increased workload but would not look at your colleague as deriving additional benefit. It can still be argued that it’s not equitable that someone who lost a limb gets to take so much paid time away from the office but I think we can all agree that this isn’t the point of the benefit. I have the same view of this time off extended to parents right now.

balfirevic 6y ago
> If your colleague were to take time off to deal with a severe physical or mental health issue, would you have the same complaints about not getting an immediate increase in compensation for picking up some extra work or also not being able to take time off? I don't know how it works in the US, but where I live the extended sick leave would be paid by the government, which would leave the company with funds to find a temporary replacement or increase compensation for people who pick up the slack. Indeed, I think it would be a terrible and absurd system if the company had to continue paying the person on extended sick leave.
- ghaff 6y ago
  >Indeed, I think it would be a terrible and absurd system if the company had to continue paying the person on extended sick leave. Yet that's typically the case in the US. Large companies typically have short-term disability and long-term disability as part of their benefits plans. Added: From the government side, there is Social Security disability.
- rabeener 6y ago
  I’ve said this in a couple of comments but reiterating here, we’re talking about a new event that caused a failure of systems. There are no government systems or subsidies to help working parents who suddenly have no public or private school and who need to balance work with the very sudden needs of providing around the clock childcare. Longer term, yes, it will be great if there is more support similar to medical care leave but an immediate solution was needed and companies did the right thing by offering flexibility to their employees. The medical leave model was put forth because it captures the essence of a required reduction of work (which is what parents are experiencing) compared to a discretionary decision like giving vegans Fridays off. It’s not time yet to take a long view of how equitable this is, we have no idea how long parents will need this flexibility for. If this lasts a year, I don’t think we should look to the government to step in. If this lasts several years, yes, we need to come up with a model that works long term and that will likely require some sort of government action.
mdorazio 6y ago
Your thinking falls apart when you consider that children are a choice. And often a selfish one at that. You are not afflicted with children, you make an active decision to have them and everything that comes along with that. I would of course not begrudge a coworker for taking time off to deal with cancer, for example, but when you decide you want kids? That's a different story. The other part of this discussion that gets left out is state vs. company responsibility. In the US, the state has generally failed when it comes to supporting parents, so people have turned to companies to fill the gap. However, it's not clear to me why companies should be the ones to do that. The state needs children and eventually benefits from them. Companies do not.
- rabeener 6y ago
  I disagree that my thinking falls apart. Maybe my message is not coming across clearly so I’ll try and restart it: We are not talking about a benefit that is systemic and a typical part of our workforce. We are talking about a reaction by companies to help their employees during an unprecedented failure of normal institutions during a moment of global crisis. To extrapolate that into an argument of choices around kids, equity of benefits, or the the role of government vs. private responsibility. We’re taking about something that started 6 months ago and has still not returned to normal, if it ever will. This will require a fundamental rethink of how we work, yes, but in the interim, parents needed help, companies stepped up and complaining about any of that seems selfish and missing the point.
  - mdorazio 6y ago
    I understand your message, but you keep framing it as a temporary issue and response when that doesn't matter - it's a preferential response, which is the whole issue. Rather than providing actually-equal time flexibility and time off to all employees in response to WFH challenges, companies provided those to only one class of employees.
- ip26 6y ago
  It may be a choice but without a younger generation growing up behind you, the whole house of cards - your life included - all comes down pretty quick. We all benefit from children. (This is part of why we all pay for public education)
em-bee 6y ago
to make the meat eater example work, shops are closed so meat eaters need friday off to hunt for food.
gandutraveler 6y ago
This wasn't a new event that affected only parents. Bit the companies rushed to provide benefits to parents because that helps them in their talent branding and being politically correct Decision makers are also most likely parents and have a blind spots to think about not parents. I'm not saying that parents should not be given benefits but they should be applied to all employees. Singles are going through depression and would benefit from taking time off to visit their family.

balfirevic 6y ago

> If your colleague were to take time off to deal with a severe physical or mental health issue, would you have the same complaints about not getting an immediate increase in compensation for picking up some extra work or also not being able to take time off? I don't know how it works in the US, but where I live the extended sick leave would be paid by the government, which would leave the company with funds to find a temporary replacement or increase compensation for people who pick up the slack. Indeed, I think it would be a terrible and absurd system if the company had to continue paying the person on extended sick leave.

ghaff 6y ago
>Indeed, I think it would be a terrible and absurd system if the company had to continue paying the person on extended sick leave. Yet that's typically the case in the US. Large companies typically have short-term disability and long-term disability as part of their benefits plans. Added: From the government side, there is Social Security disability.
rabeener 6y ago
I’ve said this in a couple of comments but reiterating here, we’re talking about a new event that caused a failure of systems. There are no government systems or subsidies to help working parents who suddenly have no public or private school and who need to balance work with the very sudden needs of providing around the clock childcare. Longer term, yes, it will be great if there is more support similar to medical care leave but an immediate solution was needed and companies did the right thing by offering flexibility to their employees. The medical leave model was put forth because it captures the essence of a required reduction of work (which is what parents are experiencing) compared to a discretionary decision like giving vegans Fridays off. It’s not time yet to take a long view of how equitable this is, we have no idea how long parents will need this flexibility for. If this lasts a year, I don’t think we should look to the government to step in. If this lasts several years, yes, we need to come up with a model that works long term and that will likely require some sort of government action.

mdorazio 6y ago

Your thinking falls apart when you consider that children are a choice. And often a selfish one at that. You are not afflicted with children, you make an active decision to have them and everything that comes along with that. I would of course not begrudge a coworker for taking time off to deal with cancer, for example, but when you decide you want kids? That's a different story. The other part of this discussion that gets left out is state vs. company responsibility. In the US, the state has generally failed when it comes to supporting parents, so people have turned to companies to fill the gap. However, it's not clear to me why companies should be the ones to do that. The state needs children and eventually benefits from them. Companies do not.

rabeener 6y ago
I disagree that my thinking falls apart. Maybe my message is not coming across clearly so I’ll try and restart it: We are not talking about a benefit that is systemic and a typical part of our workforce. We are talking about a reaction by companies to help their employees during an unprecedented failure of normal institutions during a moment of global crisis. To extrapolate that into an argument of choices around kids, equity of benefits, or the the role of government vs. private responsibility. We’re taking about something that started 6 months ago and has still not returned to normal, if it ever will. This will require a fundamental rethink of how we work, yes, but in the interim, parents needed help, companies stepped up and complaining about any of that seems selfish and missing the point.
- mdorazio 6y ago
  I understand your message, but you keep framing it as a temporary issue and response when that doesn't matter - it's a preferential response, which is the whole issue. Rather than providing actually-equal time flexibility and time off to all employees in response to WFH challenges, companies provided those to only one class of employees.
ip26 6y ago
It may be a choice but without a younger generation growing up behind you, the whole house of cards - your life included - all comes down pretty quick. We all benefit from children. (This is part of why we all pay for public education)

em-bee 6y ago

to make the meat eater example work, shops are closed so meat eaters need friday off to hunt for food.

gandutraveler 6y ago

This wasn't a new event that affected only parents. Bit the companies rushed to provide benefits to parents because that helps them in their talent branding and being politically correct Decision makers are also most likely parents and have a blind spots to think about not parents. I'm not saying that parents should not be given benefits but they should be applied to all employees. Singles are going through depression and would benefit from taking time off to visit their family.