8 ms·

A Cultural Thing: Why More Minority Women Aren’t In Tech

29 points by flynnwynn 15y ago

omnivore 15y ago
I think it's an access thing. Not access just to tools, but access to people who are doing something different. But it extends beyond tech.
OasisG 15y ago
I think the first two reasons affect everyone pretty equally, but the 3rd rings pretty true in a couple ways. I was lucky enough to attend several city schools with serious technology programs/curricula. This included C++ for all 4 years of HS provided you were on the advanced track. That said, I still had troubles fitting into the tech world and even left it for a time. There's a variety of reasons for this, but one of them was that I never really felt any sense of camaraderie with the other people who were into this stuff. Outside of computers, I often had very little in common with my white, male peers. They liked metal and rock, I mostly liked JPOP and Electronic music at the time. They were worried about getting girls to like them and annoyed at the athletes who seemed to get all of them. I was usually dating those same athletes. Even my gaming interests seemed to diverge from theirs. I'm a console gamer, but the guys were busy playing Counterstrike. This meant there were FAR fewer opportunities to collaborate and learn from a group of similarly-interested people. Thankfully, people are a LOT more open to differences now that I'm older, but it still leaves me pretty far behind. Note: I'm an Afro-Latina woman.
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  > This meant there were FAR fewer opportunities to collaborate and learn from a group of similarly-interested people. I'm going to tread carefully here. =) Similarly-interested in a small segment of likes. I think it's fair to say that in most careers, their exists a culture, and if you aren't apart of that culture, you miss out. I see this in all sorts of industries, and the type of people involved generally follow a well established stereotype. Their are exceptions, and stereotyping is bad, but I think it's safe to say we all see this and know it exists. It's not on purpose. Us white male programmers just happen to have a lot of similar interests. > but it still leaves me pretty far behind? Do you find this a fault with the industry? With those white guys? With you? Or no ones fault and it is what it is? My own experience is that people who have the same dedicated drive for programming but aren't interested in the same extra-curricular activities as most programmers usually have a lot to offer. Have you found that to be the case personally? Do you feel other people see that in you?
  - OasisG 15y ago
    I don't fault myself or anyone else. I think it's just something that happens naturally when a large group of people dominate an industry. If this were a hip hop board, we might be talking about how long it took Far East Movement to make it in a predominantly black industry, but this is HN, so we talk about women and black/latino minorities. That said, just because something happens "naturally" doesn't mean it can't have negative consequences. It's important to be aware of the issues that arise when there is a clear in-group so we can find ways to mitigate their effects. Also, I shouldn't have said people are more accepting of differences now that I'm older. It's more that people are more willing to see the differences and make a bit more effort to bring that "different" person into the fold. That sensitivity is something that comes with age and affects a variety of industries, not just tech.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    I think it's fair to say that in most careers, their exists a culture, and if you aren't apart of that culture, you miss out. This happens to white people too. I work in the financial industry. Typical weekend activity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1CKesTyTpI&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1CKesTyTpI&feature=relat... My weekend activity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7CtBWhrVAE&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7CtBWhrVAE&feature=relat... Sucks for me, but I can't find fault with other people for doing what they like. It's not the job of the rest of the world to change to make it convenient for me to network.
    - nolite 15y ago
      Holy shit that was intense
- haploid 15y ago
  "They were worried about getting girls to like them and annoyed at the athletes who seemed to get all of them. I was usually dating those same athletes." Brilliant strategy to build camaraderie with your collaborators.
usaar333 15y ago
From experience, Asians (East & South) are far overrepresented in tech, relative to all women.
- findm 15y ago
  I think that most of it is due to the fact tech is mostly a meritocracy (at its best). You're either good or you're not. You aren't judged on how well you can socialize with your superiors, co-workers, clients nor does playing politics wildly affect your performance/compensation. It does but I would say less than other fields. Also eastern culture places more of an emphasis on introspection paired with their particular upbring which typically revolves around a lot of studying, a solitary activity, I think its natural for that segment of the population to find tech to be a desirable career. Personally if I were a woman, I'd jump into tech. I'm sure being competent and of a different gender would yield significant advantages albeit maybe soft advantages.
Shamiq 15y ago
Funny, most of the few women I see in Tech ARE minority women...
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  "Minority" is a code word for "Black/Hispanic". Asians don't count.
  - gregbayer 15y ago
    Minority should not be absolute. "Underrepresented minority" only makes sense in context.
    - w1ntermute 15y ago
      Well, the point is that "minority" in this context (well, in any racially-related context in the US) is a PC euphemism for black/Hispanic.
    - yummyfajitas 15y ago
      The term "underrepresented minority" is misleading. In any state where nonhispanic whites are a minority (e.g., CA), they are typically an underrepresented minority (only Asians tend to be truly overrepresented). I've never heard whites described as "minority" as a result of this.
      - w1ntermute 15y ago
        That's because (for the time being), they have a plurality, even if they don't have a majority.
      - nbroyal 15y ago
        Non-hispanic Whites are not a minority in California [1]. And even if they were, I'd be very interested in seeing any statistics that show them as underrepresented in any context of significance (i.e. not prison). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Racial_and_ancestral_makeup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Raci...
manvsmachine 15y ago
There factor of risk aversion exists, but I'd argue not any more so for women than for men of the same racial groups. This is because the risk really isn't financial - these days everyone knows that there's tons of money to be made in tech. The risk is in prestige - doctors often become known figures in their communities in a way that engineers rarely do. Believe me, this can be a huge factor for people who grew up noticing that they were treated "differently" - minorities, immigrants, women, etc. If you are doing something awesome with your life, you want people to know about it; it can often mean the difference between being shown respect and not. In response to Shamiq, this could be why most of the "underrepresented minorities" you see in tech are actually women; arguably, they have less to prove.
tseabrooks 15y ago
I'm a biracial Software Engineer that grew up 'poor'. I think the single biggest reason I went into technology is because my parents, through some sort of time bending super sight, saw fit to save scrape, and scrimp so that I could have a computer at a very young age (9 years old started with Apple IIe in 92ish, it was already outdated and we quickly bought a nicer computer). This happened right before my fifth grade teacher sat me in the back of the class and let me play with the 1 classroom computer with the BASIC manual because I was 'gifted' and always finished my work early. These two events provided tools and a framework for learning that many minority students probably didn't have.
- erikpukinskis 15y ago
  I wonder... as more and more kids of all economic groups have smartphones, or even if they can't afford a service plan, an iPod Touch or similar.... it seems inevitable that in the next decade or so almost all kids will have access to some form of "personal" computer from childhood. I can't help but think that would change the representation in the software industry. Makes me think that getting really good programming games and dev environments on SmartPhones is a great idea.
  - tseabrooks 15y ago
    Maybe but a lot of these new devices every kid has can't be 'programmed' the way my Apple IIe could be. The early computers were devices that could write software for themselves and the current 'post-pc' (I hate this term but it's all I had) devices don't really enable you to write code using them for themselves.
    - brg 15y ago
      I would argue that the inclusion of Applesoft BASIC in the Apple ][ line was the most beneficial thing to happen to the tech field in the 80s. Perhaps at the time it was simply a way to get traction from homebrew hobbyists. But the impact was immense. Spending nights on end in front of green text to type in "Home Computing" programs was the first steps taken by the many of the greatest programmers I've ever worked with. Newer tech products are designed to be consumable only. They are media devices, ends to themselves and no longer tools of exploration. They do a great job at making peoples lives more enjoyable, but its with regret I see kids unable to begin unlocking how they work simply by typing in 10 PRINT "HELLO"; 20 GOTO 10.
wh-uws 15y ago
This generalizes to minority men as well. Even if its not that risk taking is discouraged, risk averse or more conservative routes are certainly encouraged more. There is also the pressure of not having multi generational wealth to fall back on. Not having previously successful family to lean on in times of need or if things don't go right is a strong precursor to risk aversion
rokhayakebe 15y ago
I hope sometimes we take a minute to just understand that technology (the building of it, that is) just does not interest everyone. As a matter of fact I think it only interests a minority of people so it is really difficult for this small group to include a large subgroup of every ethnicity. There are some things in life for which certain minorities just do not necessarily enjoy. It is not just about women or technology. Example: I do not enjoy going camping in the wild, and apparently 99% of black people (whether they are African, African Americans, European do not really enjoy this).
- mkramlich 15y ago
  I've also noticed that there are almost no black people (in the US) on ski slopes, camping or at the beach. And I've never assumed that it's because they're being oppressed or that it's the result of some cultural bogeyman. Rather that, for whatever reasons, they are just not as into it as white people are. Also, based on my experience, I've seen almost no Asian folks doing those activities either. Some Hispanics/Mexicans, certainly, but my offhand sense is that they are underrepresented relative to their total share of population as well. But it's not as extreme of a difference as it is for blacks and Asians. And you know what? I just don't see this as a problem. I don't think there's any one right/perfect/proper percentage for any given human activity. Or at least, I don't see how we can objectively conclude what those percentages are.
  - earl 15y ago
    I go to Heavenly and Kirkwood basically every weekend in ski season -- at least until I broke my ankle mid March -- and I'd say the demographics at Heavenly match sf pretty well. Kirkwood less so, but I'd guess that's the difficulty getting there / drawing more people from SLT and Nevada.
bane 15y ago
There are tons of Minority women in Tech! I'd argue that there are more minority women by percentage of total women in tech than minority men. I've seen entire development shops with dozens of developers, 30-40% were women and of those >90% were minority women. The better question is the age old, why aren't there more women in tech?
- cristinacordova 15y ago
  I should have mentioned that I was mostly referring to historically underrepresented minority women (blacks and Hispanics). This may affect what you have observed. Asians, in particular, are overrepresented in education and technology when compared to the general population statistics in the US.
  - bane 15y ago
    I do have to agree partially with you. Asians (East and Indian) women are fairly well represented as a percentage of women in total. I've seen very few Hispanic women in computing (and sadly, very few Hispanics in general). However, I've met more black women in computing than black men. This is all anecdotal of course, but there's some kind of deeper sociological pattern there I'm sure.
mkramlich 15y ago
I think we should be gender and race blind, and therefore also neutral, when it comes to thinking about whether any given permutation "should" be in tech, or should be in it in greater or lesser numbers than currently. I think a serious intellectual mistake is made whenever someone sees a situation where say < 50% of the folks in a given field are female, and therefore concluding that's a "problem" or the result of some oppression, or that any given field should be comprised of X% race A, Y% race B, X% race C, and so forth. Because we just cannot know for sure what the "proper" or natural percentage is supposed to be in these cases, as the baseline to compare against an allegedly unfair percentage. Instead, let's work to make both the tech and the field equally (and by that I mean neutrally) available, and friendly, and useful, for everybody, period, and then let the chips fall where they may.

29 points by flynnwynn 15y ago

I think it's an access thing. Not access just to tools, but access to people who are doing something different. But it extends beyond tech.

OasisG 15y ago

I think the first two reasons affect everyone pretty equally, but the 3rd rings pretty true in a couple ways. I was lucky enough to attend several city schools with serious technology programs/curricula. This included C++ for all 4 years of HS provided you were on the advanced track. That said, I still had troubles fitting into the tech world and even left it for a time. There's a variety of reasons for this, but one of them was that I never really felt any sense of camaraderie with the other people who were into this stuff. Outside of computers, I often had very little in common with my white, male peers. They liked metal and rock, I mostly liked JPOP and Electronic music at the time. They were worried about getting girls to like them and annoyed at the athletes who seemed to get all of them. I was usually dating those same athletes. Even my gaming interests seemed to diverge from theirs. I'm a console gamer, but the guys were busy playing Counterstrike. This meant there were FAR fewer opportunities to collaborate and learn from a group of similarly-interested people. Thankfully, people are a LOT more open to differences now that I'm older, but it still leaves me pretty far behind. Note: I'm an Afro-Latina woman.

jasonlotito 15y ago
> This meant there were FAR fewer opportunities to collaborate and learn from a group of similarly-interested people. I'm going to tread carefully here. =) Similarly-interested in a small segment of likes. I think it's fair to say that in most careers, their exists a culture, and if you aren't apart of that culture, you miss out. I see this in all sorts of industries, and the type of people involved generally follow a well established stereotype. Their are exceptions, and stereotyping is bad, but I think it's safe to say we all see this and know it exists. It's not on purpose. Us white male programmers just happen to have a lot of similar interests. > but it still leaves me pretty far behind? Do you find this a fault with the industry? With those white guys? With you? Or no ones fault and it is what it is? My own experience is that people who have the same dedicated drive for programming but aren't interested in the same extra-curricular activities as most programmers usually have a lot to offer. Have you found that to be the case personally? Do you feel other people see that in you?
- OasisG 15y ago
  I don't fault myself or anyone else. I think it's just something that happens naturally when a large group of people dominate an industry. If this were a hip hop board, we might be talking about how long it took Far East Movement to make it in a predominantly black industry, but this is HN, so we talk about women and black/latino minorities. That said, just because something happens "naturally" doesn't mean it can't have negative consequences. It's important to be aware of the issues that arise when there is a clear in-group so we can find ways to mitigate their effects. Also, I shouldn't have said people are more accepting of differences now that I'm older. It's more that people are more willing to see the differences and make a bit more effort to bring that "different" person into the fold. That sensitivity is something that comes with age and affects a variety of industries, not just tech.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  I think it's fair to say that in most careers, their exists a culture, and if you aren't apart of that culture, you miss out. This happens to white people too. I work in the financial industry. Typical weekend activity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1CKesTyTpI&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1CKesTyTpI&feature=relat... My weekend activity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7CtBWhrVAE&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7CtBWhrVAE&feature=relat... Sucks for me, but I can't find fault with other people for doing what they like. It's not the job of the rest of the world to change to make it convenient for me to network.
  - nolite 15y ago
    Holy shit that was intense
haploid 15y ago
"They were worried about getting girls to like them and annoyed at the athletes who seemed to get all of them. I was usually dating those same athletes." Brilliant strategy to build camaraderie with your collaborators.

usaar333 15y ago

From experience, Asians (East & South) are far overrepresented in tech, relative to all women.

findm 15y ago
I think that most of it is due to the fact tech is mostly a meritocracy (at its best). You're either good or you're not. You aren't judged on how well you can socialize with your superiors, co-workers, clients nor does playing politics wildly affect your performance/compensation. It does but I would say less than other fields. Also eastern culture places more of an emphasis on introspection paired with their particular upbring which typically revolves around a lot of studying, a solitary activity, I think its natural for that segment of the population to find tech to be a desirable career. Personally if I were a woman, I'd jump into tech. I'm sure being competent and of a different gender would yield significant advantages albeit maybe soft advantages.

Shamiq 15y ago

Funny, most of the few women I see in Tech ARE minority women...

yummyfajitas 15y ago
"Minority" is a code word for "Black/Hispanic". Asians don't count.
- gregbayer 15y ago
  Minority should not be absolute. "Underrepresented minority" only makes sense in context.
  - w1ntermute 15y ago
    Well, the point is that "minority" in this context (well, in any racially-related context in the US) is a PC euphemism for black/Hispanic.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    The term "underrepresented minority" is misleading. In any state where nonhispanic whites are a minority (e.g., CA), they are typically an underrepresented minority (only Asians tend to be truly overrepresented). I've never heard whites described as "minority" as a result of this.
    - w1ntermute 15y ago
      That's because (for the time being), they have a plurality, even if they don't have a majority.
    - nbroyal 15y ago
      Non-hispanic Whites are not a minority in California [1]. And even if they were, I'd be very interested in seeing any statistics that show them as underrepresented in any context of significance (i.e. not prison). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Racial_and_ancestral_makeup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Raci...

manvsmachine 15y ago

There factor of risk aversion exists, but I'd argue not any more so for women than for men of the same racial groups. This is because the risk really isn't financial - these days everyone knows that there's tons of money to be made in tech. The risk is in prestige - doctors often become known figures in their communities in a way that engineers rarely do. Believe me, this can be a huge factor for people who grew up noticing that they were treated "differently" - minorities, immigrants, women, etc. If you are doing something awesome with your life, you want people to know about it; it can often mean the difference between being shown respect and not. In response to Shamiq, this could be why most of the "underrepresented minorities" you see in tech are actually women; arguably, they have less to prove.

tseabrooks 15y ago

I'm a biracial Software Engineer that grew up 'poor'. I think the single biggest reason I went into technology is because my parents, through some sort of time bending super sight, saw fit to save scrape, and scrimp so that I could have a computer at a very young age (9 years old started with Apple IIe in 92ish, it was already outdated and we quickly bought a nicer computer). This happened right before my fifth grade teacher sat me in the back of the class and let me play with the 1 classroom computer with the BASIC manual because I was 'gifted' and always finished my work early. These two events provided tools and a framework for learning that many minority students probably didn't have.

erikpukinskis 15y ago
I wonder... as more and more kids of all economic groups have smartphones, or even if they can't afford a service plan, an iPod Touch or similar.... it seems inevitable that in the next decade or so almost all kids will have access to some form of "personal" computer from childhood. I can't help but think that would change the representation in the software industry. Makes me think that getting really good programming games and dev environments on SmartPhones is a great idea.
- tseabrooks 15y ago
  Maybe but a lot of these new devices every kid has can't be 'programmed' the way my Apple IIe could be. The early computers were devices that could write software for themselves and the current 'post-pc' (I hate this term but it's all I had) devices don't really enable you to write code using them for themselves.
  - brg 15y ago
    I would argue that the inclusion of Applesoft BASIC in the Apple ][ line was the most beneficial thing to happen to the tech field in the 80s. Perhaps at the time it was simply a way to get traction from homebrew hobbyists. But the impact was immense. Spending nights on end in front of green text to type in "Home Computing" programs was the first steps taken by the many of the greatest programmers I've ever worked with. Newer tech products are designed to be consumable only. They are media devices, ends to themselves and no longer tools of exploration. They do a great job at making peoples lives more enjoyable, but its with regret I see kids unable to begin unlocking how they work simply by typing in 10 PRINT "HELLO"; 20 GOTO 10.

wh-uws 15y ago

This generalizes to minority men as well. Even if its not that risk taking is discouraged, risk averse or more conservative routes are certainly encouraged more. There is also the pressure of not having multi generational wealth to fall back on. Not having previously successful family to lean on in times of need or if things don't go right is a strong precursor to risk aversion

rokhayakebe 15y ago

I hope sometimes we take a minute to just understand that technology (the building of it, that is) just does not interest everyone. As a matter of fact I think it only interests a minority of people so it is really difficult for this small group to include a large subgroup of every ethnicity. There are some things in life for which certain minorities just do not necessarily enjoy. It is not just about women or technology. Example: I do not enjoy going camping in the wild, and apparently 99% of black people (whether they are African, African Americans, European do not really enjoy this).

mkramlich 15y ago
I've also noticed that there are almost no black people (in the US) on ski slopes, camping or at the beach. And I've never assumed that it's because they're being oppressed or that it's the result of some cultural bogeyman. Rather that, for whatever reasons, they are just not as into it as white people are. Also, based on my experience, I've seen almost no Asian folks doing those activities either. Some Hispanics/Mexicans, certainly, but my offhand sense is that they are underrepresented relative to their total share of population as well. But it's not as extreme of a difference as it is for blacks and Asians. And you know what? I just don't see this as a problem. I don't think there's any one right/perfect/proper percentage for any given human activity. Or at least, I don't see how we can objectively conclude what those percentages are.
- earl 15y ago
  I go to Heavenly and Kirkwood basically every weekend in ski season -- at least until I broke my ankle mid March -- and I'd say the demographics at Heavenly match sf pretty well. Kirkwood less so, but I'd guess that's the difficulty getting there / drawing more people from SLT and Nevada.

bane 15y ago

There are tons of Minority women in Tech! I'd argue that there are more minority women by percentage of total women in tech than minority men. I've seen entire development shops with dozens of developers, 30-40% were women and of those >90% were minority women. The better question is the age old, why aren't there more women in tech?

cristinacordova 15y ago
I should have mentioned that I was mostly referring to historically underrepresented minority women (blacks and Hispanics). This may affect what you have observed. Asians, in particular, are overrepresented in education and technology when compared to the general population statistics in the US.
- bane 15y ago
  I do have to agree partially with you. Asians (East and Indian) women are fairly well represented as a percentage of women in total. I've seen very few Hispanic women in computing (and sadly, very few Hispanics in general). However, I've met more black women in computing than black men. This is all anecdotal of course, but there's some kind of deeper sociological pattern there I'm sure.

mkramlich 15y ago

I think we should be gender and race blind, and therefore also neutral, when it comes to thinking about whether any given permutation "should" be in tech, or should be in it in greater or lesser numbers than currently. I think a serious intellectual mistake is made whenever someone sees a situation where say < 50% of the folks in a given field are female, and therefore concluding that's a "problem" or the result of some oppression, or that any given field should be comprised of X% race A, Y% race B, X% race C, and so forth. Because we just cannot know for sure what the "proper" or natural percentage is supposed to be in these cases, as the baseline to compare against an allegedly unfair percentage. Instead, let's work to make both the tech and the field equally (and by that I mean neutrally) available, and friendly, and useful, for everybody, period, and then let the chips fall where they may.