4 ms·

Sorry, but there's a lot more to it that a simple one-off sexual harassment accusation.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago
There is more to it but it is also a "cancel culture" moment if there ever was one. I think history will look back on his ousting as part of a mass hysteria, but I don't agree with OP about likening it to the Khmer Rouge (messed up, that)
codethief 6y ago
Can you elaborate? At least the ZDNet article you posted doesn't exactly corroborate your statement. (Not taking a stance for/against RMS here – I still don't really understand what happened.)
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  See the daring fireball link up thread.
- dabockster 6y ago
  There were some Tweets by some women AI researchers at MIT about RMS's lewd behavior towards them. The kind of behavior that would have gotten a lesser man burned at the stake (metaphorically, of course).
wazoox 6y ago
Having a semi-private conversation about someone else's deeds can't constitute "a lot more" by any reasonable measure. BTW the whole downvoting crowd only confirms me in my opinions :)
- runbyfruity 6y ago
  The downvotes could also mean you should do some self-reflection. It's possible you don't realize you're espousing offensive views. And before you go "zomg I've triggered the snowflakes!", there's nothing wrong with holding these views in the abstract, but they do suggest that perhaps these ideas might drive you to very real actions that aren't particularly helpful for society.
  - wazoox 6y ago
    I'm espousing all sort of offensive views. I'm for the end of capitalism, for instance. As for self-reflection, I've been accused of everything, for instance to be an antisemite because I'm espousing the offensive opinion that Israel is an apartheid state, and that BDS is a fine idea I support. I concluded with George Orwell and Noam Chomsky that “Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” Therefore I conclude that it's of the utmost importance to be able to express despicable, obnoxious, offensive views. That doesn't mean that I condone all of these views. OTOH, all really important views are necessarily offensive to someone, else they're probably benign and of little significance, if any. I understand that RMS is probably an obnoxious jerk. However, it's in a large part because he is an obnoxious, insensitive jerk that he's been so adamant on his principles, and I deem this is a key reason why he had a significant influence in technology and on the world at large.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  I support you speaking your mind, but don't agree with it. Carry on.
  - wazoox 6y ago
    AFAIK the subject was discussing Marvin Minsky's acts related to the Epstein affair, on some MIT mailing list (semi-public). RMS was having a discussion about someone he personally knows. If I personally know someone accused of something, and I think it doesn't fit well with the person as I know them, I may doubt, wonder, ponder, etc. In fact, it seems an obvious, natural thing to do in such a case. But for some reason expressing doubts about Minsky's culpability was this particular day akin to apology of rape or child exploitation. OTOH Epstein has been obviously assassinated in weird circumstances that scream "many very important people wanted this guy dead" but apparently this is no big deal. Go figure. Oh I didn't mention the generally inappropriate behaviour of RMS. He's dirty and so and so. Then there's his behaviour with women, so let's see what Gruber said: so he basically went to women and say silly shit such as "go out with me or I'll kill myself". That's ridiculous, that's annoying and that makes the person on the receiving end uneasy and shameful and offended. But that doesn't qualify as an "aggression" or "harassment", it's stupid and lame, awkward and tasteless, however I pretend that hurting someone's feeling shouldn't be prosecuted. Ever. As long as no insults were proffered, generally that's what the law states in civilized countries, too. Asking someone out in an awkward way once doesn't qualify as harassment. Watching intently as someone doesn't, either. Making someone uneasy still isn't harassment. And this seems to be all there is against RMS, which is, admit it, really not much.

There is more to it but it is also a "cancel culture" moment if there ever was one. I think history will look back on his ousting as part of a mass hysteria, but I don't agree with OP about likening it to the Khmer Rouge (messed up, that)

codethief 6y ago

Can you elaborate? At least the ZDNet article you posted doesn't exactly corroborate your statement. (Not taking a stance for/against RMS here – I still don't really understand what happened.)

mixmastamyk 6y ago
See the daring fireball link up thread.
dabockster 6y ago
There were some Tweets by some women AI researchers at MIT about RMS's lewd behavior towards them. The kind of behavior that would have gotten a lesser man burned at the stake (metaphorically, of course).

wazoox 6y ago

Having a semi-private conversation about someone else's deeds can't constitute "a lot more" by any reasonable measure. BTW the whole downvoting crowd only confirms me in my opinions :)

runbyfruity 6y ago
The downvotes could also mean you should do some self-reflection. It's possible you don't realize you're espousing offensive views. And before you go "zomg I've triggered the snowflakes!", there's nothing wrong with holding these views in the abstract, but they do suggest that perhaps these ideas might drive you to very real actions that aren't particularly helpful for society.
- wazoox 6y ago
  I'm espousing all sort of offensive views. I'm for the end of capitalism, for instance. As for self-reflection, I've been accused of everything, for instance to be an antisemite because I'm espousing the offensive opinion that Israel is an apartheid state, and that BDS is a fine idea I support. I concluded with George Orwell and Noam Chomsky that “Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” Therefore I conclude that it's of the utmost importance to be able to express despicable, obnoxious, offensive views. That doesn't mean that I condone all of these views. OTOH, all really important views are necessarily offensive to someone, else they're probably benign and of little significance, if any. I understand that RMS is probably an obnoxious jerk. However, it's in a large part because he is an obnoxious, insensitive jerk that he's been so adamant on his principles, and I deem this is a key reason why he had a significant influence in technology and on the world at large.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
I support you speaking your mind, but don't agree with it. Carry on.
- wazoox 6y ago
  AFAIK the subject was discussing Marvin Minsky's acts related to the Epstein affair, on some MIT mailing list (semi-public). RMS was having a discussion about someone he personally knows. If I personally know someone accused of something, and I think it doesn't fit well with the person as I know them, I may doubt, wonder, ponder, etc. In fact, it seems an obvious, natural thing to do in such a case. But for some reason expressing doubts about Minsky's culpability was this particular day akin to apology of rape or child exploitation. OTOH Epstein has been obviously assassinated in weird circumstances that scream "many very important people wanted this guy dead" but apparently this is no big deal. Go figure. Oh I didn't mention the generally inappropriate behaviour of RMS. He's dirty and so and so. Then there's his behaviour with women, so let's see what Gruber said: so he basically went to women and say silly shit such as "go out with me or I'll kill myself". That's ridiculous, that's annoying and that makes the person on the receiving end uneasy and shameful and offended. But that doesn't qualify as an "aggression" or "harassment", it's stupid and lame, awkward and tasteless, however I pretend that hurting someone's feeling shouldn't be prosecuted. Ever. As long as no insults were proffered, generally that's what the law states in civilized countries, too. Asking someone out in an awkward way once doesn't qualify as harassment. Watching intently as someone doesn't, either. Making someone uneasy still isn't harassment. And this seems to be all there is against RMS, which is, admit it, really not much.