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> Anarchism would mandate worker ownership of production Legitimately curious: How do you mandate anything in an anarchy?

vidarh 6y ago
Mandate in this case is used in the abstract: in the absence of any system to recognise and enforce private property rights, and in the face of a society that sees coercion and aggression as pretty much the only things that are wholly and totally unacceptable, they cease to exist because they only exist in the first case through the state or other means of threatening force to enforce it. It would be more precise to say that worker control in anarchism is a consequence of dismantling the system that enforces property rights.
- elgfare 6y ago
  Thanks. That feels like weird chain of causality. All the bad stuff only disappears when the systems protecting us from them are removed.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Because it just so happens that this system didn't happen in order to protect us, but just uses that argument to perpetuate itself.
  - vidarh 6y ago
    Nobody is suggesting removing the systems that are actually protecting us. The argument is that a lot of the structures are not protecting us, but perpetuating oppression, and that if we invert the power pyramid, and power is only delegated by consent to the extent it is exercised in a manner that minimises oppression, then we're left with what people actually consent to be subjected to.
sudosysgen 6y ago
Using strong social norms and consensus. If the social norm is that hierarchy is not acceptable unless absolutely unavoidable, then a direct consequence is that the workplace must be organized cooperatively to follow that base.
- elgfare 6y ago
  I see. That's a big IF though if you ask me.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    But is it? If an anarchist society was to come to existence wouldn't it be necessary beforethen for it to be largely accepted? And also, there are currently existing societies where that dynamic works, so I'm not sure it's that unrealistic.
    - elgfare 6y ago
      > If an anarchist society was to come to existence wouldn't it be necessary beforethen for it to be largely accepted? I guess so. THAT's the the big IF in that case :-). > And also, there are currently existing societies where that dynamic works, so I'm not sure it's that unrealistic. Really? Which societies?
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communitie...

vidarh 6y ago

Mandate in this case is used in the abstract: in the absence of any system to recognise and enforce private property rights, and in the face of a society that sees coercion and aggression as pretty much the only things that are wholly and totally unacceptable, they cease to exist because they only exist in the first case through the state or other means of threatening force to enforce it. It would be more precise to say that worker control in anarchism is a consequence of dismantling the system that enforces property rights.

elgfare 6y ago
Thanks. That feels like weird chain of causality. All the bad stuff only disappears when the systems protecting us from them are removed.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Because it just so happens that this system didn't happen in order to protect us, but just uses that argument to perpetuate itself.
- vidarh 6y ago
  Nobody is suggesting removing the systems that are actually protecting us. The argument is that a lot of the structures are not protecting us, but perpetuating oppression, and that if we invert the power pyramid, and power is only delegated by consent to the extent it is exercised in a manner that minimises oppression, then we're left with what people actually consent to be subjected to.

sudosysgen 6y ago

Using strong social norms and consensus. If the social norm is that hierarchy is not acceptable unless absolutely unavoidable, then a direct consequence is that the workplace must be organized cooperatively to follow that base.

elgfare 6y ago
I see. That's a big IF though if you ask me.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  But is it? If an anarchist society was to come to existence wouldn't it be necessary beforethen for it to be largely accepted? And also, there are currently existing societies where that dynamic works, so I'm not sure it's that unrealistic.
  - elgfare 6y ago
    > If an anarchist society was to come to existence wouldn't it be necessary beforethen for it to be largely accepted? I guess so. THAT's the the big IF in that case :-). > And also, there are currently existing societies where that dynamic works, so I'm not sure it's that unrealistic. Really? Which societies?
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communitie...