3 ms·

With this kind of analysis I can make the wearing of a t-shirt, jeans and trainers all about the penis too. If you’re obsessed with how clothes represent genit

With this kind of analysis I can make the wearing of a t-shirt, jeans and trainers all about the penis too. If you’re obsessed with how clothes represent genitals and sexuality, you’re going to find all clothes represent genitals and sexuality to some degree. Why that collar around the neck? Why that hoodie concealing the precise shape of the torso? Why the bright white of those Jordan Airs? I wear a tie occasionally, with a three piece suit, because if I don’t, I can’t get access to the nice bits of the racecourses I visit across the UK (when such things were of course allowed). Wearing a tie today is not about penises, it’s not about power, it’s about conformity. It’s about not standing out, merging into the crowd, becoming a little more anonymous. Walk around the City of London on a busy workday (except in 2020), and the men merge into one, hardly distinguishable in their uniforms. The tie looks like a penis the way a trouser leg does. It embodies power the way a hoodie does. Women wear them in some contexts (restaurant waitresses, front of house staff in theatres, etc.), and not to show off their non-existent penis. [edit:] As an aside it also serves a practical purpose of hiding the button line of a shirt, and if you miss your mouth when eating your lunch it is easily replaceable. Despite the detractor’s wails it is not an entirely useless piece of cloth if you’re eating soup in a formal setting [/edit] People mostly wear them because it’s expected of them and to conform, and this article while having all the hallmarks of an intelligent and thoughtful piece is just a love letter to the author’s internal anxieties. If you share those anxieties, perhaps talk to a therapist.

ycombinete 6y ago
Well, the hoodie serves the dual function of representing the clitoral hood, as well as the foreskin of the penis. It's the first truly gender neutral uniform, and I for one would like to see it in the workplace more often.
cassepipe 6y ago
"it’s about conformity." You just nailed it.
- scandox 6y ago
  And yet it is the one piece of clothing where people get to display a small amount of distinctive style. So I think there is still something to be elucidated. If one gave a shit. Which one does not.
  - the_jeremy 6y ago
    > the one piece In what world? Shoes, belt buckle, cuff links, lapel pins, watches, and style and cut of the rest of the outfit allow "a small amount of distinctive style". Ignoring, of course, all the less formal, distinctive style choices.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      Depending upon matrimonial status, fit might be an important addition to the list. My wife (as she is now) noticed, while we were dating, that the stripes on my shirts matched at the seams. I don't care about such details myself, but what are we to do when women are such visual creatures?
gostsamo 6y ago
You actually do not answer the main question. The fact that you personally ware a tie to conform to the norm does not explain how the norm came to be. Instead you talk in random directions, ending with a nice athominem attack against the author. Some notes: waitresses and front house staff are not in position of power, and it actually aligns with the thesis of the author which mentions that ties are sexualizing women. You say that the tie hides the buttons of the shirt, but there is already such a solution for trousers and why not reuse the concept? You say that ties are good when eating soup. However, they are not all that effective in their current form, not used for this purpose for the last few hundred years, and there is no sense carying it around through the entire day the way cutlery is not part of the men's office dress code as well. Where I'd agree with you is in doubting the mental jump necessary to discover sexual symbolism in something which might be just a counterweight to otherwise boring exterior.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Don't some conforming uniformed people in the City carry around a pink newspaper to advertise their caste? Waitresses and front house staff are wearing echoes of what the patrons of an establishment used to wear before the last clothing shift. After the next, will they all be in hoodies? (I'm still waiting for the sexual interpretation of t-shirt and trainers? Hmm ... trainers do share gum soles with bordello creepers...) Bonus track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et281UHNoOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et281UHNoOU Bonus codepoint: U+130BA
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
I seem to remember a fairly well-known psychologist, who had a thesis, stating that pretty much everything we do, at any time, for any reason, can be boiled down to the desire to bump uglies; sometimes, with our parents. Not sure I completely agree with him, but it's an entertaining way to look at the world.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  It's especially entertaining when the surface meaning[1] of the conversation is only a cover for one's desire to bump uglies[2] with the conversee. The standard strategy is to make slips and see if, as for a TCP ACK, one's interlocutor slips[3] in return. This strategy, as attested from folk song[4] to Shakespeare, existed well before[5] the Viennese psychologist[6], but he provided intellectual deniability. [1] TFA, for instance, is probably less well framed as a logical argument, and better as a poetic conceit, a shaggy dog story transmuting the apparent street rudeness of the title to intellectual respectability. (compare Ovid, Metamorphōseōn librī) [2] In the sorts of bars which play both kinds of music, there is a convention that a lady only ever touches a gentleman's cowboy hat if she has (or hopes soon to have) touched his tie-substitute. Needless to say, in ambiguous situations this provides a sartorial haptic channel, in addition to the common verbal channel, for conversation (or territoriality). Compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24339584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24339584 [3] https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71O-VXB7Q5L._AC_SL1500_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71O-VXB7Q5L... [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24130589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24130589 [5] https://books.google.ch/books?id=Q2gRtLLmZTAC&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=“Man+is+even+more+eager+to+copulate+than+a+donkey+–+his+purse+is+what+restrains+him.”&source=bl&ots=ZfqrXGRBCh&sig=Gq08O6Lg0qALm8JiRevosQzuAUo&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=“Man%20is%20even%20more%20eager%20to%20copulate%20than%20a%20donkey%20–%20his%20purse%20is%20what%20restrains%20him.”&f=false https://books.google.ch/books?id=Q2gRtLLmZTAC&pg=PA178&lpg=P... compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373341 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373341 > "Nègue pòté maïs dans so lapoche pou volé poule;—milatt pòté cordon dans so lapoche pou volé choual;—nhomme blanc pòté larzan dans so lapoche pou trompé fille. > (Le nègre porte du maïs dans sa poche pour voler des poules;—le mulâtre porte un cordon dans sa poche pour voler des chevaux;—l’homme blanc porte de l’argent dans sa poche pour tromper les filles.) > The negro carries corn in his pocket to [help him to] steal chickens; the mulatto carries a rope in his pocket to steal horses; the white man carries money in his pocket to deceive girls." [6] the opposite mating strategy is the Freudian Crash-and-Burn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSmkxy24iwc&t=180 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSmkxy24iwc&t=180 (1975: might be NSFW for anglophones, for language?) What do kids do these days? I guess phone intermediation would rule out much of the kinaesthetic?

ycombinete 6y ago

Well, the hoodie serves the dual function of representing the clitoral hood, as well as the foreskin of the penis. It's the first truly gender neutral uniform, and I for one would like to see it in the workplace more often.

cassepipe 6y ago

"it’s about conformity." You just nailed it.

scandox 6y ago
And yet it is the one piece of clothing where people get to display a small amount of distinctive style. So I think there is still something to be elucidated. If one gave a shit. Which one does not.
- the_jeremy 6y ago
  > the one piece In what world? Shoes, belt buckle, cuff links, lapel pins, watches, and style and cut of the rest of the outfit allow "a small amount of distinctive style". Ignoring, of course, all the less formal, distinctive style choices.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Depending upon matrimonial status, fit might be an important addition to the list. My wife (as she is now) noticed, while we were dating, that the stripes on my shirts matched at the seams. I don't care about such details myself, but what are we to do when women are such visual creatures?

gostsamo 6y ago

You actually do not answer the main question. The fact that you personally ware a tie to conform to the norm does not explain how the norm came to be. Instead you talk in random directions, ending with a nice athominem attack against the author. Some notes: waitresses and front house staff are not in position of power, and it actually aligns with the thesis of the author which mentions that ties are sexualizing women. You say that the tie hides the buttons of the shirt, but there is already such a solution for trousers and why not reuse the concept? You say that ties are good when eating soup. However, they are not all that effective in their current form, not used for this purpose for the last few hundred years, and there is no sense carying it around through the entire day the way cutlery is not part of the men's office dress code as well. Where I'd agree with you is in doubting the mental jump necessary to discover sexual symbolism in something which might be just a counterweight to otherwise boring exterior.

082349872349872 6y ago
Don't some conforming uniformed people in the City carry around a pink newspaper to advertise their caste? Waitresses and front house staff are wearing echoes of what the patrons of an establishment used to wear before the last clothing shift. After the next, will they all be in hoodies? (I'm still waiting for the sexual interpretation of t-shirt and trainers? Hmm ... trainers do share gum soles with bordello creepers...) Bonus track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et281UHNoOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et281UHNoOU Bonus codepoint: U+130BA

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

I seem to remember a fairly well-known psychologist, who had a thesis, stating that pretty much everything we do, at any time, for any reason, can be boiled down to the desire to bump uglies; sometimes, with our parents. Not sure I completely agree with him, but it's an entertaining way to look at the world.

082349872349872 6y ago
It's especially entertaining when the surface meaning[1] of the conversation is only a cover for one's desire to bump uglies[2] with the conversee. The standard strategy is to make slips and see if, as for a TCP ACK, one's interlocutor slips[3] in return. This strategy, as attested from folk song[4] to Shakespeare, existed well before[5] the Viennese psychologist[6], but he provided intellectual deniability. [1] TFA, for instance, is probably less well framed as a logical argument, and better as a poetic conceit, a shaggy dog story transmuting the apparent street rudeness of the title to intellectual respectability. (compare Ovid, Metamorphōseōn librī) [2] In the sorts of bars which play both kinds of music, there is a convention that a lady only ever touches a gentleman's cowboy hat if she has (or hopes soon to have) touched his tie-substitute. Needless to say, in ambiguous situations this provides a sartorial haptic channel, in addition to the common verbal channel, for conversation (or territoriality). Compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24339584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24339584 [3] https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71O-VXB7Q5L._AC_SL1500_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71O-VXB7Q5L... [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24130589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24130589 [5] https://books.google.ch/books?id=Q2gRtLLmZTAC&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=“Man+is+even+more+eager+to+copulate+than+a+donkey+–+his+purse+is+what+restrains+him.”&source=bl&ots=ZfqrXGRBCh&sig=Gq08O6Lg0qALm8JiRevosQzuAUo&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=“Man%20is%20even%20more%20eager%20to%20copulate%20than%20a%20donkey%20–%20his%20purse%20is%20what%20restrains%20him.”&f=false https://books.google.ch/books?id=Q2gRtLLmZTAC&pg=PA178&lpg=P... compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373341 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373341 > "Nègue pòté maïs dans so lapoche pou volé poule;—milatt pòté cordon dans so lapoche pou volé choual;—nhomme blanc pòté larzan dans so lapoche pou trompé fille. > (Le nègre porte du maïs dans sa poche pour voler des poules;—le mulâtre porte un cordon dans sa poche pour voler des chevaux;—l’homme blanc porte de l’argent dans sa poche pour tromper les filles.) > The negro carries corn in his pocket to [help him to] steal chickens; the mulatto carries a rope in his pocket to steal horses; the white man carries money in his pocket to deceive girls." [6] the opposite mating strategy is the Freudian Crash-and-Burn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSmkxy24iwc&t=180 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSmkxy24iwc&t=180 (1975: might be NSFW for anglophones, for language?) What do kids do these days? I guess phone intermediation would rule out much of the kinaesthetic?