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Couple of honest questions to you (or anyone else reading this who thinks along the same lines). Firstly, are you saying anyone who happened to be born in Chin

Couple of honest questions to you (or anyone else reading this who thinks along the same lines). Firstly, are you saying anyone who happened to be born in China is complicit in e.g. the crimes committed against Uighur population and thus doesn't deserve to be able to legally buy an Apple phone in their country? Secondly, if Apple exits a non-free country, do you expect that to improve the situation? Make the country freer? In China this would leave the population to local tech, which is pretty much owned by CCP and subject to its every whim—as opposed to Apple’s cooperating to the degree required to not break the law. What's the benefit to be had here?

runbyfruity 6y ago
Apple doesn't help prop up an authoritarian regime? CCP gonna CCP, but at least Apple's hands are clean. It's not any individual Chinese citizen's fault, but they unfortunately have to deal with the consequences of an illiberal, ruthless regime.
- strogonoff 6y ago
  So your idea is that the presence of Apple helps (props up) CCP, the absence would hurt CCP? Any details as to how? My belief is it's the opposite and I've outlined why I think Apple’s withdrawal would strengthen the regime in my comment above.
  - john-shaffer 6y ago
    If the CCP believed that Apple's absence would strengthen the regime, then they would get rid of Apple. Clearly they think it's in their best interest to have Apple around. You can disagree with them, but I think the CCP is much better positioned to know what's in their interest than we are.
    - strogonoff 6y ago
      You are granting CCP omniscience, power and integrity they don't have. Apple probably came to China to expand their market, had enough lawyers to navigate the muddy bureaucracy, CCP could block them regardless but decided to let them open shops and profit from taxes for now. Many Chinese would buy Apple products overseas in HK or Taiwan anyway; CCP is powerless to stop it and would not mind a share of the sales. CCP may be blind to Western values brought in by Apple, or discount their influence, or tolerate them for now because it is economically lucrative.
wpurvis 6y ago
>Firstly, are you saying anyone who happened to be born in China is complicit in e.g. the crimes committed against Uighur population and thus doesn't deserve to be able to legally buy an Apple phone in their country? I am not saying everyone in China is complicit in the Chinese government's human rights abuses. Purchasing a specific product from a specific company is not a right. >Secondly, if Apple exits a non-free country, do you expect that to improve the situation? Make the country freer? >In China this would leave the population to local tech, which is pretty much owned by CCP and subject to its every whim—as opposed to Apple’s cooperating to the degree required to not break the law. I don't expect it to improve the situation, nor do I believe it's Apple's job to improve China. Apple's job is to have consistent beliefs about human rights if they're going to pretend to care about them. >What's the benefit to be had here? The benefit is Apple puts their money where their mouth is. Saying they care about human rights and then cooperating with a serial abuser renders their policy irrelevant.

runbyfruity 6y ago

Apple doesn't help prop up an authoritarian regime? CCP gonna CCP, but at least Apple's hands are clean. It's not any individual Chinese citizen's fault, but they unfortunately have to deal with the consequences of an illiberal, ruthless regime.

strogonoff 6y ago
So your idea is that the presence of Apple helps (props up) CCP, the absence would hurt CCP? Any details as to how? My belief is it's the opposite and I've outlined why I think Apple’s withdrawal would strengthen the regime in my comment above.
- john-shaffer 6y ago
  If the CCP believed that Apple's absence would strengthen the regime, then they would get rid of Apple. Clearly they think it's in their best interest to have Apple around. You can disagree with them, but I think the CCP is much better positioned to know what's in their interest than we are.
  - strogonoff 6y ago
    You are granting CCP omniscience, power and integrity they don't have. Apple probably came to China to expand their market, had enough lawyers to navigate the muddy bureaucracy, CCP could block them regardless but decided to let them open shops and profit from taxes for now. Many Chinese would buy Apple products overseas in HK or Taiwan anyway; CCP is powerless to stop it and would not mind a share of the sales. CCP may be blind to Western values brought in by Apple, or discount their influence, or tolerate them for now because it is economically lucrative.

wpurvis 6y ago

>Firstly, are you saying anyone who happened to be born in China is complicit in e.g. the crimes committed against Uighur population and thus doesn't deserve to be able to legally buy an Apple phone in their country? I am not saying everyone in China is complicit in the Chinese government's human rights abuses. Purchasing a specific product from a specific company is not a right. >Secondly, if Apple exits a non-free country, do you expect that to improve the situation? Make the country freer? >In China this would leave the population to local tech, which is pretty much owned by CCP and subject to its every whim—as opposed to Apple’s cooperating to the degree required to not break the law. I don't expect it to improve the situation, nor do I believe it's Apple's job to improve China. Apple's job is to have consistent beliefs about human rights if they're going to pretend to care about them. >What's the benefit to be had here? The benefit is Apple puts their money where their mouth is. Saying they care about human rights and then cooperating with a serial abuser renders their policy irrelevant.