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Although there are a tremendous number of borrowings out of Chinese into both languages, there aren't many structural similarities between Chinese and Korean or

Although there are a tremendous number of borrowings out of Chinese into both languages, there aren't many structural similarities between Chinese and Korean or Chinese and Japanese. For example, Chinese has no system of verb conjugation, whereas Korean and Japanese both do, conjugating for the past and present, among other aspects. Chinese also does not have a system of adjective inflection, whereas Korean and Japanese do. Adjectives in these languages inflect to indicate speech level as well as to indicate tense (which is to say, adjectives have a "past form", kind of like verbs). There are many other structural differences of note. Beware of arguments based on things we don't know, technically "argument from ignorance". That we don't know which one they might have split from is no reason to believe that this is actually happened! What we don't know didn't happen can't go in place of what we do know did happen.

magicsmoke 6y ago
The null hypothesis we use in the absence of proof reflects our cultural assumptions, and I think this is a case where Chinese and European assumptions collide. From the European standpoint, "we don't know the origin of this language, so our null hypothesis is that it developed independently" contrasts with China's "we don't know the origin of this language, so our null hypothesis is that it's related to another language nearby." Given the long documented history of various Chinese languages and culture in East Asia and the lack of competing origins with equally dense documented history, it's quite common for a laymen to assume that everything is linked in some way to Ancient China. Old Chinese has records dating back to 1000 BC, while Old Japanese and Old Korean both have their oldest writings from post 700 CE. That's a 1700 year gap for our null hypothesis to fill. In a 1700 year gap where we only have records of Chinese, then suddenly we start getting records of Korean and Japanese, the idea that there's some kind of cross pollination from Chinese we aren't aware of in that undocumented period isn't too big of a leap. Another language origin could have been nomadic peoples to the north traveling across the Eurasian steppes, and frankly I'm more inclined to believe that's where Korean and Japanese actually originate from. However, despite the growing study of these peoples that have been neglected in traditional Chinese historiography, they don't leave behind enough archeological evidence for us to prove something like the Altaic language family convincingly, so we're back to null hypothesis and cultural assumptions.
- solidsnack9000 6y ago
  The logical fallacy of "argument from ignorance" is not about a null hypothesis or culturally accepted default. It's a way of reframing things to lend credibility to any hypothesis without actually providing evidence in support of it. When we look at the grammar of Chinese, Japanese and Korean, it raises a lot of doubts about the possibility of lineal descent -- about the idea that Japanese and Korean are a kind of Chinese. These differences provide positive support for the idea that Chinese bears no especially close relationship to the other two, while discouraging the idea that they are close descendants. Evidence is often like that: supporting what is true while disconfirming what isn't.
  - magicsmoke 6y ago
    Let's leave aside whether Chinese, Japanese, and Korean are related because I think we're both in agreement they're not. My point is that what the "unsupported hypothesis" is depends on your cultural viewpoint. It could be that "not descended from Chinese" is the unsupported hypothesis if you grew up in an environment where most things you experience are descended from Chinese. Or as another example, if we got into a discussion about whether the sun will rise tomorrow, it's expected that I would have to prove that sun won't rise tomorrow instead of proving that the sun will rise tomorrow. There's no evidence either way until tomorrow arrives. But our baseline assumption is that the sun will rise tomorrow because that's what it's done every prior day. Our null hypothesis are informed by everyday experience, and that's very much a part of our cultural background.
    - solidsnack9000 6y ago
      In the structure of an argument from ignorance, the unsupported hypothesis is the one that someone is trying to support with negative information, which is to say, with an argument like "We don't know that <hypothesis> isn't true...". It's a form of argument that we should be wary of. The unsupported hypothesis in argument from ignorance doesn't have to be any particular hypothesis, or a culturally supported hypothesis. Argument from ignorance is a way to frame any hypothesis for which we're not offering positive evidence in a speciously credible way.

magicsmoke 6y ago

The null hypothesis we use in the absence of proof reflects our cultural assumptions, and I think this is a case where Chinese and European assumptions collide. From the European standpoint, "we don't know the origin of this language, so our null hypothesis is that it developed independently" contrasts with China's "we don't know the origin of this language, so our null hypothesis is that it's related to another language nearby." Given the long documented history of various Chinese languages and culture in East Asia and the lack of competing origins with equally dense documented history, it's quite common for a laymen to assume that everything is linked in some way to Ancient China. Old Chinese has records dating back to 1000 BC, while Old Japanese and Old Korean both have their oldest writings from post 700 CE. That's a 1700 year gap for our null hypothesis to fill. In a 1700 year gap where we only have records of Chinese, then suddenly we start getting records of Korean and Japanese, the idea that there's some kind of cross pollination from Chinese we aren't aware of in that undocumented period isn't too big of a leap. Another language origin could have been nomadic peoples to the north traveling across the Eurasian steppes, and frankly I'm more inclined to believe that's where Korean and Japanese actually originate from. However, despite the growing study of these peoples that have been neglected in traditional Chinese historiography, they don't leave behind enough archeological evidence for us to prove something like the Altaic language family convincingly, so we're back to null hypothesis and cultural assumptions.

solidsnack9000 6y ago
The logical fallacy of "argument from ignorance" is not about a null hypothesis or culturally accepted default. It's a way of reframing things to lend credibility to any hypothesis without actually providing evidence in support of it. When we look at the grammar of Chinese, Japanese and Korean, it raises a lot of doubts about the possibility of lineal descent -- about the idea that Japanese and Korean are a kind of Chinese. These differences provide positive support for the idea that Chinese bears no especially close relationship to the other two, while discouraging the idea that they are close descendants. Evidence is often like that: supporting what is true while disconfirming what isn't.
- magicsmoke 6y ago
  Let's leave aside whether Chinese, Japanese, and Korean are related because I think we're both in agreement they're not. My point is that what the "unsupported hypothesis" is depends on your cultural viewpoint. It could be that "not descended from Chinese" is the unsupported hypothesis if you grew up in an environment where most things you experience are descended from Chinese. Or as another example, if we got into a discussion about whether the sun will rise tomorrow, it's expected that I would have to prove that sun won't rise tomorrow instead of proving that the sun will rise tomorrow. There's no evidence either way until tomorrow arrives. But our baseline assumption is that the sun will rise tomorrow because that's what it's done every prior day. Our null hypothesis are informed by everyday experience, and that's very much a part of our cultural background.
  - solidsnack9000 6y ago
    In the structure of an argument from ignorance, the unsupported hypothesis is the one that someone is trying to support with negative information, which is to say, with an argument like "We don't know that <hypothesis> isn't true...". It's a form of argument that we should be wary of. The unsupported hypothesis in argument from ignorance doesn't have to be any particular hypothesis, or a culturally supported hypothesis. Argument from ignorance is a way to frame any hypothesis for which we're not offering positive evidence in a speciously credible way.