5 ms·

DKIM is not solving the wrong problem, DKIM is solving an underlying problem. The suggestions to use reputation, accounts etc are still fine and good, but step

DKIM is not solving the wrong problem, DKIM is solving an underlying problem. The suggestions to use reputation, accounts etc are still fine and good, but step 0 is to check whether that guy on the other side is who he says he is - and that's where DKIM comes in.

brightball 6y ago
DKIM is great but the keys need to be rotated at some interval. Most services will setup a CNAME so they can do this for you at least these days.
- throwawayinfo 6y ago
  I'm a big fan of rotating keys monthly just to force automation. Maybe that's the answer?
  - brightball 6y ago
    I think that’s a great idea. When it comes to DKIM keys, since there’s no expiration it’s very common for manually managed to be setup and forgotten.
stiray 6y ago
Yes but then again (i consider this their trolling of diy) google forces you to set up reverse resolve regardless of dkim. They effectively lock out (or should I say, spam out) anyone that doesnt have ISP preparing to do that and it complicates migration to another ISP. And prevents you running multiple domain mail server on single ip. It is true, that reverse resolve generally in EU isnt such a problem, but it does make issues for USA users.
- citrin_ru 6y ago
  You don't need to be an ISP to change reverse DNS mappings, you can ask your ISP (or do this via UI provided by the ISP). Most cloud providers allows to configure reverse name, the same for DCs which offer servers for rent or provide co-location. Broadband ISPs offer this for business customers (unless they face no competition and get away with being customer unfriendly). Though it is not a good idea to host a mail server on a broadband connections - they usually blacklisted because of history of spam. > And prevents you running multiple domain mail server on single ip No it is not. You have to have a pair of mappings: IP -> hostname -> IP, but practically nobody checks that domain of hostname matches domains used in emails. Most mail providers send mail with multiple domains in mail form using shared pool of servers which do not use customer's domains in their hostnames.
  - stiray 6y ago
    First part is repeating myself (Where did I say you need to be isp?!! Injecting something false and then arguing about it...), second part google does check reverse dns. I am running self hosted mail server on broadband static ip for close to 20 years and until the reverse resolve was done I was categorically thrown into spam on gmail. DKIM or not. Once the reverse DSN was set it stopped (after a while)... Well just google it you have enough of showcases there.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago
Yeah, but it doesn't check whether that guy on the other side is who he says he is, it only checks whether that domain on the other side is what it appears to be (registered via ICANN-approved registrar to "that guy"). DKIM relies on DNS. It checks on domains, not people. You have no reliable assurance from DKIM of who is actually controlling that domain. It might not be "that guy" but someone else. DNS is not without its vulnerablities (including social engineering). Any security mechanism based on DNS is only as "secure" as DNS, which isn't very.
- irjustin 6y ago
  I mean you're technically not wrong, but how do you confirm ownership of an identity? At some point you have to "trust a system". Block Chain, Social Security ID, Drivers License, Passport, even DNS are all susceptible to some form of attack vector. I could do a DNA test to verify you, provided I did one before. > is only as "secure" as DNS, which isn't very I'd argue DNS itself is quite secure. It has lots of issues, but it's so widely used those issues are known and mitigated for. DNS as a system receives an insane amount of attacks. There's just too much money involved for people not to pay attention for attackers and defenders. I will agree that your DNS isn't secure. It's analogous to saying your Gmail isn't secure, but Gmail itself is just fine.
  - ratiolat 6y ago
    Well, Estonia has id-card, which in addition to ordinary id card functionality also provides PKI. If I remember correctly, they rolled out PKI ~2005ish. It has done wonders for them. https://e-estonia.com/solutions/e-identity/id-card/ https://e-estonia.com/solutions/e-identity/id-card/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_identity_card
    - sleevi 6y ago
      Which the EU is debating making an equivalent European wide version mandatory, and requiring websites/private companies adopt and use it (via SAML; instead of username/passwords or things like OAuth/OpenID Connect). In this vision, any online interaction that would require an identity would minimally be required to accept your European identity, and may be prohibited (via GDPR or DSA) from offering other forms of sign-in. Read the Roadmap at https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/12528-European-Digital-Identity-EUid- https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa... and comment on the Public Consultation if you have feelings about that. Explicitly part of the goal is either a pan-European ID card or requiring every Member State to adopt one. Currently, MS aren’t required to. When the UK was in the EU, the idea of a digital ID that could be used by the government to track all of your activities online was... not popular. However, despite Brexit, the idea is being reintroduced, this time to “fight coronavirus”. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54010432 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54010432

brightball 6y ago

DKIM is great but the keys need to be rotated at some interval. Most services will setup a CNAME so they can do this for you at least these days.

throwawayinfo 6y ago
I'm a big fan of rotating keys monthly just to force automation. Maybe that's the answer?
- brightball 6y ago
  I think that’s a great idea. When it comes to DKIM keys, since there’s no expiration it’s very common for manually managed to be setup and forgotten.

stiray 6y ago

Yes but then again (i consider this their trolling of diy) google forces you to set up reverse resolve regardless of dkim. They effectively lock out (or should I say, spam out) anyone that doesnt have ISP preparing to do that and it complicates migration to another ISP. And prevents you running multiple domain mail server on single ip. It is true, that reverse resolve generally in EU isnt such a problem, but it does make issues for USA users.

citrin_ru 6y ago
You don't need to be an ISP to change reverse DNS mappings, you can ask your ISP (or do this via UI provided by the ISP). Most cloud providers allows to configure reverse name, the same for DCs which offer servers for rent or provide co-location. Broadband ISPs offer this for business customers (unless they face no competition and get away with being customer unfriendly). Though it is not a good idea to host a mail server on a broadband connections - they usually blacklisted because of history of spam. > And prevents you running multiple domain mail server on single ip No it is not. You have to have a pair of mappings: IP -> hostname -> IP, but practically nobody checks that domain of hostname matches domains used in emails. Most mail providers send mail with multiple domains in mail form using shared pool of servers which do not use customer's domains in their hostnames.
- stiray 6y ago
  First part is repeating myself (Where did I say you need to be isp?!! Injecting something false and then arguing about it...), second part google does check reverse dns. I am running self hosted mail server on broadband static ip for close to 20 years and until the reverse resolve was done I was categorically thrown into spam on gmail. DKIM or not. Once the reverse DSN was set it stopped (after a while)... Well just google it you have enough of showcases there.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago

Yeah, but it doesn't check whether that guy on the other side is who he says he is, it only checks whether that domain on the other side is what it appears to be (registered via ICANN-approved registrar to "that guy"). DKIM relies on DNS. It checks on domains, not people. You have no reliable assurance from DKIM of who is actually controlling that domain. It might not be "that guy" but someone else. DNS is not without its vulnerablities (including social engineering). Any security mechanism based on DNS is only as "secure" as DNS, which isn't very.

irjustin 6y ago
I mean you're technically not wrong, but how do you confirm ownership of an identity? At some point you have to "trust a system". Block Chain, Social Security ID, Drivers License, Passport, even DNS are all susceptible to some form of attack vector. I could do a DNA test to verify you, provided I did one before. > is only as "secure" as DNS, which isn't very I'd argue DNS itself is quite secure. It has lots of issues, but it's so widely used those issues are known and mitigated for. DNS as a system receives an insane amount of attacks. There's just too much money involved for people not to pay attention for attackers and defenders. I will agree that your DNS isn't secure. It's analogous to saying your Gmail isn't secure, but Gmail itself is just fine.
- ratiolat 6y ago
  Well, Estonia has id-card, which in addition to ordinary id card functionality also provides PKI. If I remember correctly, they rolled out PKI ~2005ish. It has done wonders for them. https://e-estonia.com/solutions/e-identity/id-card/ https://e-estonia.com/solutions/e-identity/id-card/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_identity_card
  - sleevi 6y ago
    Which the EU is debating making an equivalent European wide version mandatory, and requiring websites/private companies adopt and use it (via SAML; instead of username/passwords or things like OAuth/OpenID Connect). In this vision, any online interaction that would require an identity would minimally be required to accept your European identity, and may be prohibited (via GDPR or DSA) from offering other forms of sign-in. Read the Roadmap at https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/12528-European-Digital-Identity-EUid- https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa... and comment on the Public Consultation if you have feelings about that. Explicitly part of the goal is either a pan-European ID card or requiring every Member State to adopt one. Currently, MS aren’t required to. When the UK was in the EU, the idea of a digital ID that could be used by the government to track all of your activities online was... not popular. However, despite Brexit, the idea is being reintroduced, this time to “fight coronavirus”. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54010432 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54010432