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> For all the changes it evinced over what had come before, Syndicate was a typical Peter Molyneux game in other ways. It started out thoroughly entrancing, but

> For all the changes it evinced over what had come before, Syndicate was a typical Peter Molyneux game in other ways. It started out thoroughly entrancing, but went on way too long, with only a handful of fixed mission types on offer as you slowly — very slowly — took over the world. By the mid-game, you had discovered most of the cool gear and cybernetic enhancements, and what had started out fresh and exciting had begun to turn into a bit of a grind. Thus Syndicate became another Molyneux game that far more players started than finished. I'm not following this part, and a similar comment with Magic Carpet. I completed both games and never had this feeling at the time. There's enough new stuff and variety in the missions to keep it interesting until the end. > At bottom, Theme Park is a nasty, cynical little game, amoral if not actively immoral — a game where your concern isn’t with the happiness of your guests at all, but strictly with the amount of money you can extract from them; a profitable theme park with miserable patrons is not only possible but the only practical road to success. This is the kind of game where you over-salt the patrons’ fries to get them to buy more soda, which cups you stuff to the brim with ice to… well, you get the picture. I just took it as silly fun as opposed to some kind of social commentary.

dleslie 6y ago
> I just took it as silly fun as opposed to some kind of social commentary. But capitalism bad! Seriously, though, I wonder about folks who are incapable of imagining a duality of goals: both earning profit and maximizing guest happiness. It's not nasty or cynical to earn a profit if doing so involves improving the well being of others.
- seanwilson 6y ago
  The game is famous though for the trick of adding lots of salt to food to make the visitors spend more on drinks, which isn't improving well being. I'd bet on the designers adding this because it was a fun and amusing gameplay mechanic over them trying to say something about capitalism however. Similarly, people would build parks that were super dangerous, or create areas that set off chain reactions of visitors throwing up everywhere. It's a fun sandbox.
  - dleslie 6y ago
    Lots of business simulation games completely fail at modeling the inflow of customers as a reaction to existing customer satisfaction. Ie, they don't model returning customers or the effect of customer dissatisfaction on attracting new customers. And yes, like with Rollercoaster Tycoon, one could do horrendous things; but that's less a reflection on the player's moral character as it is upon their curiousity and awareness of the lack of real harm.
- darthrupert 6y ago
  It's magic thinking to suppose that profit and general goodness always match up. There's no logical reason to think that would happen. What often happens, fortunately, is that they match well enough that the relative simplicity of the market system makes it a net positive. But to think that capitalism works wonders for society and customers is just silly. Theme Park parodies this fact of life very aptly.
  - dleslie 6y ago
    No one in the article or this thread suggested that good intentions and profit will _always_ align. That is, indeed, a silly proposition. Capitalism has worked wonders for society; it has thus far surpassed all competing modes of wealth distribution in terms of life expectation, child mortality, literacy, and even technological development. Capitalist Democracies have performed so well it's sort of amazing. And in this globally connected world one doesn't have to settle; those that don't favour capitalism can travel to a number of south american states and enjoy an alternative. My sister in law has done just this, and is happily living off the land in Peru.
    - pmachinery 6y ago
      Improvements in life expectancy, child mortality, literacy are the result of socialist struggle and regulation, including free education, universal health care, increased workers' rights and welfare safety nets. As for wealth distribution, what do you think the "one-percent" is all about?
      - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
        wealth distribution is not a virtuous goal insofar that we have seen what attempts at the opposite end up causing. Everyone becomes equal, way way down. What is important, extremely important, but no one talks about - is equality of opportunity. In this regard, more than 50% of all americans will spend at least 1 year in the top 10% of all income. Compare that to most europe, where for example, the same 10 families in france in italy , after many centuries, still hold on to money and power...and never lose either. That is a worthy goal to keep improving on. It doesn't matter how much anyone amasses - what really matters is that everyone has a fair shot at it, too. https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d8f00bc0cb46 https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d...
MetallicCloud 6y ago
I loved magic carpet and finished it, but even in my wide eyed youth the grind was pretty hard.
sedatk 6y ago
He is partially right about Syndicate. You used to max out your characters mid-game and the gameplay after that was usually "just persuadertron everyone until you have a goblin army and attack". There wasn't much variety in missions. However, I don't remember getting bored by the game either. I was just sad that it got too easy and repetitive after a certain point.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- b0rsuk 6y ago
  Minigun was the default weapon from somewhere around mid game. Some levels had enemy snipers. The last level had gauss gun enemies. That's it as far as level variety goes in that game.
pravus 6y ago
I can see why the author might think mid to end game of Syndicate is a bit of a grind although to me that's really when the game started to get fun. You reach that inflection point where you have a demolition squad that can just roll through missions and get that feeling that you really are taking over the world. You can set traps for entire groups of enemies or just blitz right through an entire level eliminating targets all along the way. Great fun! Magic Carpet also has the same vibe. Once you start playing against other wizards it becomes a race to get certain spells and enough power to start leeching mana until you can rain down lightning storms, meteors, and volcanoes; all the while annihilating flocks of birds, hordes of bees, lakes filled with kraken, monstrous crabs, griffins... and wyverns. I know what I'm doing this weekend.
conradfr 6y ago
Yes that part is a bit harsh on Theme Park. As a 14yo at the time (that would went on to study marketing & business) I liked all aspect of the game and its business features were not hidden behind a fun design, it was an integral part of the game and the magazine reviews at the time made it clear. edit: eMule, Bullfrog, Monkey Island, Winamp skins, is it nostalgia week on HN ? ;)
- elliottkember 6y ago
  I tried to explain the Neverhood to someone the other day. Failed miserably!
gnud 6y ago
I've never played Theme Park - but from playing of Theme Hospital, I suspect this was actually a very conscious attempt at dark humor - and possibly commentary, as well. (In Theme Hospital you send patients with unknown diseases to an 'auto-autopsy'. That is, you kill them, in order to learn a cure)
- noneeeed 6y ago
  This. I remember playing Theme Park and it was pretty obvious this was a bit of dark humour, especially as the downside to over salting was that you had more people throwing up. Complaining that a simulation of a theme park is cynical is rather missing the entire point.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

dleslie 6y ago

> I just took it as silly fun as opposed to some kind of social commentary. But capitalism bad! Seriously, though, I wonder about folks who are incapable of imagining a duality of goals: both earning profit and maximizing guest happiness. It's not nasty or cynical to earn a profit if doing so involves improving the well being of others.

seanwilson 6y ago
The game is famous though for the trick of adding lots of salt to food to make the visitors spend more on drinks, which isn't improving well being. I'd bet on the designers adding this because it was a fun and amusing gameplay mechanic over them trying to say something about capitalism however. Similarly, people would build parks that were super dangerous, or create areas that set off chain reactions of visitors throwing up everywhere. It's a fun sandbox.
- dleslie 6y ago
  Lots of business simulation games completely fail at modeling the inflow of customers as a reaction to existing customer satisfaction. Ie, they don't model returning customers or the effect of customer dissatisfaction on attracting new customers. And yes, like with Rollercoaster Tycoon, one could do horrendous things; but that's less a reflection on the player's moral character as it is upon their curiousity and awareness of the lack of real harm.
darthrupert 6y ago
It's magic thinking to suppose that profit and general goodness always match up. There's no logical reason to think that would happen. What often happens, fortunately, is that they match well enough that the relative simplicity of the market system makes it a net positive. But to think that capitalism works wonders for society and customers is just silly. Theme Park parodies this fact of life very aptly.
- dleslie 6y ago
  No one in the article or this thread suggested that good intentions and profit will _always_ align. That is, indeed, a silly proposition. Capitalism has worked wonders for society; it has thus far surpassed all competing modes of wealth distribution in terms of life expectation, child mortality, literacy, and even technological development. Capitalist Democracies have performed so well it's sort of amazing. And in this globally connected world one doesn't have to settle; those that don't favour capitalism can travel to a number of south american states and enjoy an alternative. My sister in law has done just this, and is happily living off the land in Peru.
  - pmachinery 6y ago
    Improvements in life expectancy, child mortality, literacy are the result of socialist struggle and regulation, including free education, universal health care, increased workers' rights and welfare safety nets. As for wealth distribution, what do you think the "one-percent" is all about?
    - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
      wealth distribution is not a virtuous goal insofar that we have seen what attempts at the opposite end up causing. Everyone becomes equal, way way down. What is important, extremely important, but no one talks about - is equality of opportunity. In this regard, more than 50% of all americans will spend at least 1 year in the top 10% of all income. Compare that to most europe, where for example, the same 10 families in france in italy , after many centuries, still hold on to money and power...and never lose either. That is a worthy goal to keep improving on. It doesn't matter how much anyone amasses - what really matters is that everyone has a fair shot at it, too. https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d8f00bc0cb46 https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d...

MetallicCloud 6y ago

I loved magic carpet and finished it, but even in my wide eyed youth the grind was pretty hard.

sedatk 6y ago

He is partially right about Syndicate. You used to max out your characters mid-game and the gameplay after that was usually "just persuadertron everyone until you have a goblin army and attack". There wasn't much variety in missions. However, I don't remember getting bored by the game either. I was just sad that it got too easy and repetitive after a certain point.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
b0rsuk 6y ago
Minigun was the default weapon from somewhere around mid game. Some levels had enemy snipers. The last level had gauss gun enemies. That's it as far as level variety goes in that game.

pravus 6y ago

I can see why the author might think mid to end game of Syndicate is a bit of a grind although to me that's really when the game started to get fun. You reach that inflection point where you have a demolition squad that can just roll through missions and get that feeling that you really are taking over the world. You can set traps for entire groups of enemies or just blitz right through an entire level eliminating targets all along the way. Great fun! Magic Carpet also has the same vibe. Once you start playing against other wizards it becomes a race to get certain spells and enough power to start leeching mana until you can rain down lightning storms, meteors, and volcanoes; all the while annihilating flocks of birds, hordes of bees, lakes filled with kraken, monstrous crabs, griffins... and wyverns. I know what I'm doing this weekend.

conradfr 6y ago

Yes that part is a bit harsh on Theme Park. As a 14yo at the time (that would went on to study marketing & business) I liked all aspect of the game and its business features were not hidden behind a fun design, it was an integral part of the game and the magazine reviews at the time made it clear. edit: eMule, Bullfrog, Monkey Island, Winamp skins, is it nostalgia week on HN ? ;)

elliottkember 6y ago
I tried to explain the Neverhood to someone the other day. Failed miserably!

gnud 6y ago

I've never played Theme Park - but from playing of Theme Hospital, I suspect this was actually a very conscious attempt at dark humor - and possibly commentary, as well. (In Theme Hospital you send patients with unknown diseases to an 'auto-autopsy'. That is, you kill them, in order to learn a cure)

noneeeed 6y ago
This. I remember playing Theme Park and it was pretty obvious this was a bit of dark humour, especially as the downside to over salting was that you had more people throwing up. Complaining that a simulation of a theme park is cynical is rather missing the entire point.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]