5 ms·

gpg does too many things. minisign does digital signatures (like for releases). age does encryption (like for backups).

by wolf550e 6y ago

SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
Age and Minisign also don't have the ability to misconfigure them to use insecure primitives. GPG does.
- gravitas 6y ago
  Age is new to me, I immediately find there's a Go (age) and Rust (rage) implementation - which one is the encryption community at large favoring more? (stability, code quality, etc.) https://github.com/FiloSottile/age https://github.com/FiloSottile/age https://github.com/str4d/rage https://github.com/str4d/rage
  - woodruffw 6y ago
    I'm not involved with either, but I've looked at both for other projects[1]. The Rust implementation's CLI mirrors that of the reference (Go) implementation, and I haven't had stability issues with either. I found the Rust implementation's source code readable and decently documented. [1]: https://github.com/woodruffw/kbs2 https://github.com/woodruffw/kbs2
- georgyo 6y ago
  At the time there were implemented in GPG they were not insecure. If age and minisign are around 10 or 20 years for now, we'll see if your statement is still true.
  - wolf550e 6y ago
    Obviously Filippo Valsorda will release a new version that fixes whatever the issue is and will deprecate the old version immediately. The new code might retain ability to decrypt the old version but not encrypt with the old version, for compatibility with old backup files or whatever. If he thinks it's safe to do.
    - georgyo 6y ago
      Okay, so you're trust is completely in one person having perfect design decisions and that he chooses to continue to maintain these tools in perpetuity. You also state that tool may or may not be able interact with past files. Which means it might be useless. Git is in the process of deprecating sha1, and you end up having the put flexibility in after a tool expands. It will likely keep supporting sha1 even after it is much more trivial to create collisions.
      - wolf550e 6y ago
        No one is getting locked out of their files created by an old version. There will be a migration path. The old code will be in git. Worst case, the spec is open, I can implement the spec myself in python, using pycryptodome and pyca/cryptography, it wouldn't be hard. I trust his judgement much more than I trust the group that maintains gpg. Of course, actually, there is a community, Filippo is not working in a vacuum. Worst case, if Filippo stops maintaining it or makes bad decisions, someone else (or a group of people) will maintain it.
- upofadown 6y ago
  Well neither does GPG. Insecure stuff gets removed. Stuff that people just have a funny feeling about gets retained.
  - XMPPwocky 6y ago
    Well, yes, this bridge is built out of LEGO, and yes, it does bend a lot and make concerning noises every time a car drives over it, but it hasn't actually come apart yet, so we'll keep sending traffic over it.
  - wolf550e 6y ago
    current versions of gpg support insecure settings and the defaults are not what you want.
    - somedude11 6y ago
      Simply not true. Defaults are cryptographically strong.
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  The simple fact that they are not integrated together makes it easy to misuse them. http://world.std.com/~dtd/sign_encrypt/sign_encrypt7.html http://world.std.com/~dtd/sign_encrypt/sign_encrypt7.html
oauea 6y ago
Can I store my key on a smartcard for either?
- wolf550e 6y ago
  I guess you can use https://github.com/FiloSottile/yubikey-agent https://github.com/FiloSottile/yubikey-agent to store an ssh key on a yubikey, and then use age to encrypt to the ssh key. Getting minisign to sign using a key in a ubikey is not supported out of the box, but should be possible in the same way yubikey-agent works (after all, that's what it does when you authenticate an ssh session using a yubikey). You can ask Filippo Valsorda.
- Snawoot 6y ago
  From project page: https://github.com/FiloSottile/age#ssh-keys https://github.com/FiloSottile/age#ssh-keys > (ssh-agent is not supported.) There is no way it integrates with smartcards.
melvyn2 6y ago
I can't seem to use minisign with git, which is my main use for gpg.
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  Signing git commits is broken anyway as you are basically signing the commit hash (which is a sha1, whose collision resistance is broken).
  - cordite 6y ago
    I recall hearing github is planning on Sha-256 some time
    - some_furry 6y ago
      They're more likely to employ counter-cryptanalysis [1] in the meantime. [1] https://github.com/cr-marcstevens/sha1collisiondetection https://github.com/cr-marcstevens/sha1collisiondetection

gpg does too many things. minisign does digital signatures (like for releases). age does encryption (like for backups).

SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago

Age and Minisign also don't have the ability to misconfigure them to use insecure primitives. GPG does.

gravitas 6y ago
Age is new to me, I immediately find there's a Go (age) and Rust (rage) implementation - which one is the encryption community at large favoring more? (stability, code quality, etc.) https://github.com/FiloSottile/age https://github.com/FiloSottile/age https://github.com/str4d/rage https://github.com/str4d/rage
- woodruffw 6y ago
  I'm not involved with either, but I've looked at both for other projects[1]. The Rust implementation's CLI mirrors that of the reference (Go) implementation, and I haven't had stability issues with either. I found the Rust implementation's source code readable and decently documented. [1]: https://github.com/woodruffw/kbs2 https://github.com/woodruffw/kbs2
georgyo 6y ago
At the time there were implemented in GPG they were not insecure. If age and minisign are around 10 or 20 years for now, we'll see if your statement is still true.
- wolf550e 6y ago
  Obviously Filippo Valsorda will release a new version that fixes whatever the issue is and will deprecate the old version immediately. The new code might retain ability to decrypt the old version but not encrypt with the old version, for compatibility with old backup files or whatever. If he thinks it's safe to do.
  - georgyo 6y ago
    Okay, so you're trust is completely in one person having perfect design decisions and that he chooses to continue to maintain these tools in perpetuity. You also state that tool may or may not be able interact with past files. Which means it might be useless. Git is in the process of deprecating sha1, and you end up having the put flexibility in after a tool expands. It will likely keep supporting sha1 even after it is much more trivial to create collisions.
    - wolf550e 6y ago
      No one is getting locked out of their files created by an old version. There will be a migration path. The old code will be in git. Worst case, the spec is open, I can implement the spec myself in python, using pycryptodome and pyca/cryptography, it wouldn't be hard. I trust his judgement much more than I trust the group that maintains gpg. Of course, actually, there is a community, Filippo is not working in a vacuum. Worst case, if Filippo stops maintaining it or makes bad decisions, someone else (or a group of people) will maintain it.
upofadown 6y ago
Well neither does GPG. Insecure stuff gets removed. Stuff that people just have a funny feeling about gets retained.
- XMPPwocky 6y ago
  Well, yes, this bridge is built out of LEGO, and yes, it does bend a lot and make concerning noises every time a car drives over it, but it hasn't actually come apart yet, so we'll keep sending traffic over it.
- wolf550e 6y ago
  current versions of gpg support insecure settings and the defaults are not what you want.
  - somedude11 6y ago
    Simply not true. Defaults are cryptographically strong.
dependenttypes 6y ago
The simple fact that they are not integrated together makes it easy to misuse them. http://world.std.com/~dtd/sign_encrypt/sign_encrypt7.html http://world.std.com/~dtd/sign_encrypt/sign_encrypt7.html

oauea 6y ago

Can I store my key on a smartcard for either?

wolf550e 6y ago
I guess you can use https://github.com/FiloSottile/yubikey-agent https://github.com/FiloSottile/yubikey-agent to store an ssh key on a yubikey, and then use age to encrypt to the ssh key. Getting minisign to sign using a key in a ubikey is not supported out of the box, but should be possible in the same way yubikey-agent works (after all, that's what it does when you authenticate an ssh session using a yubikey). You can ask Filippo Valsorda.
Snawoot 6y ago
From project page: https://github.com/FiloSottile/age#ssh-keys https://github.com/FiloSottile/age#ssh-keys > (ssh-agent is not supported.) There is no way it integrates with smartcards.

melvyn2 6y ago

I can't seem to use minisign with git, which is my main use for gpg.

dependenttypes 6y ago
Signing git commits is broken anyway as you are basically signing the commit hash (which is a sha1, whose collision resistance is broken).
- cordite 6y ago
  I recall hearing github is planning on Sha-256 some time
  - some_furry 6y ago
    They're more likely to employ counter-cryptanalysis [1] in the meantime. [1] https://github.com/cr-marcstevens/sha1collisiondetection https://github.com/cr-marcstevens/sha1collisiondetection