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Eh, I grew up with the faces on TV constantly blabbering about the "decadent West" and yet my country and most of the ex-USSR has deteriorated worse than any we

by bserge 6y ago

Eh, I grew up with the faces on TV constantly blabbering about the "decadent West" and yet my country and most of the ex-USSR has deteriorated worse than any western one. My eyes kind of roll every time someone says decadent society as it reminds me of communist propaganda. Not seeing much of those four horsemen, either.

bluetomcat 6y ago
It's an ongoing rhetoric in Russia and much of Eastern Europe. Western issues like gay marriage, feminism, overconsumption, politically-correct language and identity politics are skillfully used by nationalistically-oriented populists to paint a decadent image of the West.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  It’s also used daily here (in the US), just perhaps not quite as skillfully.
- implements 6y ago
  Feminism is a western issue? Do Russians not believe in things like equal pay, all jobs being open to women, fair divorce settlements, protection from physical abuse, access to family planning? (Honest question).
  - bluetomcat 6y ago
    Women rights are equally respected especially in the workplace and in education (a lasting legacy from communism), but the whole Western narrative about socially-constructed gender roles and men oppressing women are just not there. Women are encouraged to act and look like women, little girls are encouraged to play with dolls only. The general policy is to strengthen the family unit and reduce divorces in the first place.
  - watwut 6y ago
    Yes and no. Theoretically domestic violence is bad. Practically, it is more prevalent then in west and often seen as dirty familly issue. Local preacher and familly will focus on forgiving, make familly together and that kids need dad. Likewise, equal pay sure, but dont you dare to point out when it is not. Naturally woman is the one expected to primart focus on kids and home, guy is more likely to be promoted of course. It is not seen as "not a woman place" to be leader - but it is happening less then incapable guy being promoted. Basically, there is more sexism but less hostility. Jobs are not closed to women, but people perceive you weird putside of proper gender bounds and talk about it openly. The different expectations of boys and girls are in the open too. You wont find male teachers much, super rare. Divorces seem fair money wise, except really guy will get less access to kids. But no alimony, she is expected to work. Access to familly planning is good.
tremon 6y ago
Not seeing much of those four horsemen, either It doesn't take much effort to find current instances of sword, famine, and plague. Only thing missing is the beasts, but maybe that's because we've already hunted them to extinction. Then again, we've been seeing all four them regularly for over centuries...
- learc83 6y ago
  >It doesn't take much effort to find current instances of sword, famine, and plague. And yet those things are affecting fewer people proportionally than at any time in recorded history.
082349872349872 6y ago
So all the propaganda was true: the decadent West was heading for a cliff, and the USSR not only caught up to it, but indeed even surpassed it. I suppose any one unhappy with decadence, preferring spectacular instability to stability, a good fight against misfortune to contentment, and struggles with temptation or fatal overthrows by passion is free to become whatever flavour of jihadi they find congenial: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373042 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373042 David Crosby on how becoming a millionaire changed his life: "you know those pistachios that are hard to open? I don't bother with those anymore."
jeffbee 6y ago
Just because they were wrong about themselves doesn't mean they were also wrong about us.
Nasrudith 6y ago
Decadence is a dumb and useless concept really - every damn time the society in decline considered something else irrelevant or actually helpful "decadence" while ignoring the actual cause of their downfall which they call "virtue". The infamous gladiatorial games which lead to multiple large scale insurrections were to "fight decadence" by trying to instill the military values they thought were important when really their expansionism and campaigns were a root of their downfall. Decadence as a concept makes a good polemic but it isn't a good source of judging problems let alone solving them. It really just means "I the self-proclaimed moral authority dislike this direction of society!". The closest to an "objective decadence-like concept" is an expectation of a way of life that cannot be sustained without significant damage. Cottage industry after the dawn of industrializarion would be "decadent" as factory volume beats them out and can no longer sustain the middle class lifestyle. Not exactly what comes to mix when one thinks decadence but it is a lifestyle made unsustainable. There is no "sin" to it but it just doesn't work anymore and trying to force it wouldn't work out well. Notably even that is subjective and depends upon means. Having less than 10% of the population involved in food production would be stupidly unsustainable before agricultural advances but is the first world norm today.

by bserge 6y ago

bluetomcat 6y ago

It's an ongoing rhetoric in Russia and much of Eastern Europe. Western issues like gay marriage, feminism, overconsumption, politically-correct language and identity politics are skillfully used by nationalistically-oriented populists to paint a decadent image of the West.

sokoloff 6y ago
It’s also used daily here (in the US), just perhaps not quite as skillfully.
implements 6y ago
Feminism is a western issue? Do Russians not believe in things like equal pay, all jobs being open to women, fair divorce settlements, protection from physical abuse, access to family planning? (Honest question).
- bluetomcat 6y ago
  Women rights are equally respected especially in the workplace and in education (a lasting legacy from communism), but the whole Western narrative about socially-constructed gender roles and men oppressing women are just not there. Women are encouraged to act and look like women, little girls are encouraged to play with dolls only. The general policy is to strengthen the family unit and reduce divorces in the first place.
- watwut 6y ago
  Yes and no. Theoretically domestic violence is bad. Practically, it is more prevalent then in west and often seen as dirty familly issue. Local preacher and familly will focus on forgiving, make familly together and that kids need dad. Likewise, equal pay sure, but dont you dare to point out when it is not. Naturally woman is the one expected to primart focus on kids and home, guy is more likely to be promoted of course. It is not seen as "not a woman place" to be leader - but it is happening less then incapable guy being promoted. Basically, there is more sexism but less hostility. Jobs are not closed to women, but people perceive you weird putside of proper gender bounds and talk about it openly. The different expectations of boys and girls are in the open too. You wont find male teachers much, super rare. Divorces seem fair money wise, except really guy will get less access to kids. But no alimony, she is expected to work. Access to familly planning is good.

tremon 6y ago

Not seeing much of those four horsemen, either It doesn't take much effort to find current instances of sword, famine, and plague. Only thing missing is the beasts, but maybe that's because we've already hunted them to extinction. Then again, we've been seeing all four them regularly for over centuries...

learc83 6y ago
>It doesn't take much effort to find current instances of sword, famine, and plague. And yet those things are affecting fewer people proportionally than at any time in recorded history.

082349872349872 6y ago

So all the propaganda was true: the decadent West was heading for a cliff, and the USSR not only caught up to it, but indeed even surpassed it. I suppose any one unhappy with decadence, preferring spectacular instability to stability, a good fight against misfortune to contentment, and struggles with temptation or fatal overthrows by passion is free to become whatever flavour of jihadi they find congenial: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373042 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373042 David Crosby on how becoming a millionaire changed his life: "you know those pistachios that are hard to open? I don't bother with those anymore."

jeffbee 6y ago

Just because they were wrong about themselves doesn't mean they were also wrong about us.

Nasrudith 6y ago

Decadence is a dumb and useless concept really - every damn time the society in decline considered something else irrelevant or actually helpful "decadence" while ignoring the actual cause of their downfall which they call "virtue". The infamous gladiatorial games which lead to multiple large scale insurrections were to "fight decadence" by trying to instill the military values they thought were important when really their expansionism and campaigns were a root of their downfall. Decadence as a concept makes a good polemic but it isn't a good source of judging problems let alone solving them. It really just means "I the self-proclaimed moral authority dislike this direction of society!". The closest to an "objective decadence-like concept" is an expectation of a way of life that cannot be sustained without significant damage. Cottage industry after the dawn of industrializarion would be "decadent" as factory volume beats them out and can no longer sustain the middle class lifestyle. Not exactly what comes to mix when one thinks decadence but it is a lifestyle made unsustainable. There is no "sin" to it but it just doesn't work anymore and trying to force it wouldn't work out well. Notably even that is subjective and depends upon means. Having less than 10% of the population involved in food production would be stupidly unsustainable before agricultural advances but is the first world norm today.