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Massive changes in quantity sometimes induce changes in quality. You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral

by mola 6y ago

onion2k 6y ago
You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral. That must be why there were no religions before the internet..
- LadyCailin 6y ago
  Fun fact: The medieval crusades were coordinated via TikTok.
- watwut 6y ago
  It took a lot of time and several military conquests. Once it was done, it was cemented for hundrends of years.
  - dalbasal 6y ago
    This just isn't true. History is full of explosive growth in religious movements, cults and sects, many very short lived and some long. The ones that lasted are the ones we still have. It sometimes happened through conquest, and often in non military ways. Also political movements. The French and American revolution didn't have much of a preamble.
    - watwut 6y ago
      > religious movements, cults and sects, many very short lived and some long Those however are not characterized as "world movement". > Also political movements. The French and American revolution didn't have much of a preamble. The French revolution was not one movement tho. It was general breakdown with many movements violently competing for power.
      - onion2k 6y ago
        This is just the 'No true Scotsman" fallacy.
        watwut 6y ago
        This is original comment: "You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral." This is original contra-argument: "there were no religions before the internet" followed by example of "French revolution" and various "religious movements, cults and sects, many very short lived and some long". It is not fallacy to point out that none of these things was the kind of "viral world movement" original comment was clearly talking about. For that, non viral communications are not enough.
        dalbasal 6y ago
        By the standard you set, nothing is a "viral world movement." Any example you give (including ISIS, which is the context) can be dismissed as not global enough to be a "viral world movement" or too factitious to be considered a movement at all, like the French revolution. That's what the "no true scotsman" rhetorical fallacy is. Since "viral world movement" is somewhat broad and imprecisely defined, you can always say that any example is not a true scotsman no matter how scottish she is. The idea that French republicanism (or republicanism generally) was not political movement silly.
        watwut 6y ago
        The history is simply not full of "viral world movements" and my argument is that internet is necessary if that is your goal. When world viral ends up being local local cult that grows slowly locally and at some point reaches strength locally just to die quickly, then it is neither viral nor global. > Any example you give (including ISIS, which is the context) can be dismissed as not global enough to be a "viral world movement" or too factitious to be considered a movement at all, like the French revolution. But French revolution was significantly more factitious then pretty much anything else. It was absurdly complicated set of widely different groups fighting for very much different goals. Literally ranging from right to radical left, from those for monarchy through those for democracy through whatever dictatorship. It was not one movement at all, it is more of what happens when state fails and everyone rushes for a gun. ISIS is one movement, its fractions are centered around common ideology with smaller differences. ISIS is not leading war against other branch with different name that is still ISIS. And while ISIS is not super global, it did managed to recruit from western countries. ISIS would not been as successful without internet and used internet extensively.
    - Tainnor 6y ago
      The French Revolution is a very good example for the importance of delays in communication in terms of world history, though. The Haitian revolution might have played out very differently had it not taken months for developments in Paris to make their way over to the colony. By the time certain decrees were put into effect, sometimes they had already been overturned back home. Similar things happened with the wars of Spanish American Independence. When the French occupied Spain and the country fell into a power struggle, there was no clear signal from the mother country to the colonies as to what they should do. The result was factional struggles in Latin America which also bolstered the independence movements. (Also, I take issue with the statement of the French and American revolutions not having a preamble. I think quite the opposite is true.)
      - dalbasal 6y ago
        True, but I don't know how to relate this to "terrorists using telegram." I mean, communication is fast these days. It's not like we can prevent a militant in Syria from hearing news from Europe for months. re preamble: Of course, everything has stuff that happen before it. But, it's not like there were decades of "something major is cooking here" before the revolutions. No one really expected them. Voltaire, Rousseau and others associated with the revolutions had just recently published. Even they were cagey about being labeled "liberals." The idea of absolute sovereignty of "the third estate" was considered out there until the revolution was already happening. AKAIK, the term "democracy" went from meaning "naive anarchist ideas" to an actual system of government within 3-4 years. Monarchism went from being the only realistic option to outdated and doomed very fast, viral and global 250 years ago.

Massive changes in quantity sometimes induce changes in quality. You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral

by mola 6y ago

Massive changes in quantity sometimes induce changes in quality. You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral

onion2k 6y ago

You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral. That must be why there were no religions before the internet..

LadyCailin 6y ago
Fun fact: The medieval crusades were coordinated via TikTok.
watwut 6y ago
It took a lot of time and several military conquests. Once it was done, it was cemented for hundrends of years.
- dalbasal 6y ago
  This just isn't true. History is full of explosive growth in religious movements, cults and sects, many very short lived and some long. The ones that lasted are the ones we still have. It sometimes happened through conquest, and often in non military ways. Also political movements. The French and American revolution didn't have much of a preamble.
  - watwut 6y ago
    > religious movements, cults and sects, many very short lived and some long Those however are not characterized as "world movement". > Also political movements. The French and American revolution didn't have much of a preamble. The French revolution was not one movement tho. It was general breakdown with many movements violently competing for power.
    - onion2k 6y ago
      This is just the 'No true Scotsman" fallacy.
      - watwut 6y ago
        This is original comment: "You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral." This is original contra-argument: "there were no religions before the internet" followed by example of "French revolution" and various "religious movements, cults and sects, many very short lived and some long". It is not fallacy to point out that none of these things was the kind of "viral world movement" original comment was clearly talking about. For that, non viral communications are not enough.
        dalbasal 6y ago
        By the standard you set, nothing is a "viral world movement." Any example you give (including ISIS, which is the context) can be dismissed as not global enough to be a "viral world movement" or too factitious to be considered a movement at all, like the French revolution. That's what the "no true scotsman" rhetorical fallacy is. Since "viral world movement" is somewhat broad and imprecisely defined, you can always say that any example is not a true scotsman no matter how scottish she is. The idea that French republicanism (or republicanism generally) was not political movement silly.
        watwut 6y ago
        The history is simply not full of "viral world movements" and my argument is that internet is necessary if that is your goal. When world viral ends up being local local cult that grows slowly locally and at some point reaches strength locally just to die quickly, then it is neither viral nor global. > Any example you give (including ISIS, which is the context) can be dismissed as not global enough to be a "viral world movement" or too factitious to be considered a movement at all, like the French revolution. But French revolution was significantly more factitious then pretty much anything else. It was absurdly complicated set of widely different groups fighting for very much different goals. Literally ranging from right to radical left, from those for monarchy through those for democracy through whatever dictatorship. It was not one movement at all, it is more of what happens when state fails and everyone rushes for a gun. ISIS is one movement, its fractions are centered around common ideology with smaller differences. ISIS is not leading war against other branch with different name that is still ISIS. And while ISIS is not super global, it did managed to recruit from western countries. ISIS would not been as successful without internet and used internet extensively.
  - Tainnor 6y ago
    The French Revolution is a very good example for the importance of delays in communication in terms of world history, though. The Haitian revolution might have played out very differently had it not taken months for developments in Paris to make their way over to the colony. By the time certain decrees were put into effect, sometimes they had already been overturned back home. Similar things happened with the wars of Spanish American Independence. When the French occupied Spain and the country fell into a power struggle, there was no clear signal from the mother country to the colonies as to what they should do. The result was factional struggles in Latin America which also bolstered the independence movements. (Also, I take issue with the statement of the French and American revolutions not having a preamble. I think quite the opposite is true.)
    - dalbasal 6y ago
      True, but I don't know how to relate this to "terrorists using telegram." I mean, communication is fast these days. It's not like we can prevent a militant in Syria from hearing news from Europe for months. re preamble: Of course, everything has stuff that happen before it. But, it's not like there were decades of "something major is cooking here" before the revolutions. No one really expected them. Voltaire, Rousseau and others associated with the revolutions had just recently published. Even they were cagey about being labeled "liberals." The idea of absolute sovereignty of "the third estate" was considered out there until the revolution was already happening. AKAIK, the term "democracy" went from meaning "naive anarchist ideas" to an actual system of government within 3-4 years. Monarchism went from being the only realistic option to outdated and doomed very fast, viral and global 250 years ago.