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Can someone help me understand how this will help the adoption when they still have to buy the expensive batteries

akhilramolla 6y ago
Will force battery producers closer to customer. reduce gate keepers and strengthen supply chains. and yes reduces the cost and hence companies can offer batteries for rent
- adrianmonk 6y ago
  Would renting batteries be significantly cheaper than rolling battery cost into the pricing of the car? Isn't it a monthly payment either way?
  - taneq 6y ago
    It makes the comparison with an ICE vehicle much more direct. Instead of "cheap car plus expensive fuel" vs. "expensive car plus cheap electricity", it's "car plus fuel" vs. "car plus battery rental". Also, just thinking about it now, it helps mitigate risk due to fluctuating demand because the cost to own and operate the vehicle scales down more at light usage.
    - addicted44 6y ago
      India also has extremely high interest rates. So there is a benefit in converting fixed upfront capital costs into rolling operational costs. In most developed countries consumers can convert those upfront costs easily and cheaply through loans. In a country like India, loans are much more expensive. Think of it like using cloud services instead of buying an upfront machine.
      - eru 6y ago
        > India also has extremely high interest rates. See https://tradingeconomics.com/india/real-interest-rate-percent-wb-data.html https://tradingeconomics.com/india/real-interest-rate-percen... for real (ie inflation adjusted) interest rates in India. They seem to be above 5% per year. That's high compared to the rest of the world. (Though I wouldn't say extremely high.)
        spockz 6y ago
        Loans for cars are between 5.1% and 7.7% here in the Netherlands.[0] Loans for cars tend to be the cheapest loans after mortgage loans. So 6.9% (Number for 2020) doesn’t appear crazy high to me. [0]: https://www.ing.nl/particulier/lenen/jouw-leendoel/autolening/index.html https://www.ing.nl/particulier/lenen/jouw-leendoel/autolenin...
        eru 6y ago
        That's consumer lending. I don't know what benchmark tradingeconomics uses for the numbers I linked to. It's probably some kind of institutional lending, which tends to be much lower. Trading Economic say they took the data from the World Bank. See https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FR.INR.RINR?locations=IN-NL https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FR.INR.RINR?locations=I... for a comparison of real interest rates between the Netherland and India accordind to the World Bank. The Word Bank gives a bit of background: > Statistical Concept and Methodology: Many interest rates coexist in an economy, reflecting competitive conditions, the terms governing loans and deposits, and differences in the position and status of creditors and debtors. In some economies interest rates are set by regulation or administrative fiat. In economies with imperfect markets, or where reported nominal rates are not indicative of effective rates, it may be difficult to obtain data on interest rates that reflect actual market transactions. Deposit and lending rates are collected by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) as representative interest rates offered by banks to resident customers. The terms and conditions attached to these rates differ by country, however, limiting their comparability. Real interest rates are calculated by adjusting nominal rates by an estimate of the inflation rate in the economy. A negative real interest rate indicates a loss in the purchasing power of the principal. The real interest rates are calculated as (i - P) / (1 + P), where i is the nominal lending interest rate and P is the inflation rate (as measured by the GDP deflator). In 2009 the IMF began publishing a new presentation of monetary statistics for countries that report data in accordance with its Monetary Financial Statistical Manual 2000. The presentation for countries that report data in accordance with its International Financial Statistics (IFS) remains the same.
  - kumarvvr 6y ago
    Not significantly cheaper, in fact renting would always include the cost of finance, that is borne by the battery OEM. However, renting allows for lower income earning sections of the society better access to EVs
smabie 6y ago
Maybe you could rent them? I dunno. Probably it won't help.
catmanjan 6y ago
Aftermarket/second hand batteries maybe
- EE84M3i 6y ago
  Don't car batteries have the printer cartridge problem where they have chips in them and must be sourced first party?
  - addicted44 6y ago
    India's is an extremely price conscious market. Companies that raise prices by doing that will be beaten by companies that don't very quickly. Alternatively, combined with the much weaker law enforcement, "illegal" (I'm not sure about the legality of cracking copy protections here) copies will flourish if it's close to being feasible, which it could be.
elihu 6y ago
Maybe it makes it easier to buy and have cars shipped from outside the country, since batteries are hazardous materials? Or maybe locally-made batteries are cheaper? The opposite might be the case as well, maybe the cars are easy to manufacture locally but they import the batteries from China or wherever? Or maybe just decoupling the batteries from the car enables more consumer choice. I wish the article had some hint about the actual motivation for this policy, but I could imagine several scenarios where it could be beneficial.
murrayb 6y ago
Not sure how Govt duty works in India but if it is anything like in Australia removing the battery would make the vehicle cheaper and thus reduce the amount of duty paid.
- kumarvvr 6y ago
  There is no road tax for EVs in India. But batteries would attract 18% tax during purchase. However, the govt. may give a rebate on that too.
mattnewton 6y ago
It will allow companies to compete above their scale if they don’t own huge battery operations, and probably force standard battery interfaces / easy customer install. That could make swapping batteries practical depending on the design.
- thewhitetulip 6y ago
  Considering that the ruling party is BJP (equivalent to US Republicans), this move will directly help Ambani & Adani. There won't be any tight competition or open interface, it'll be a monopoly by the two business groups who support him the most.
  - kumarvvr 6y ago
    This statement is ignorant at best. What looks like a sound business decision, one which opens up the market for more competition, you are twisting it as a politically motivated corrupt move. By the logic you are stating, any business or market friendly move by any government will have to be targeted at specific individuals or families. I really want to understand why there will not be any competition or open interface. The car company decides the interface. If a rival chooses to create an open interface, and reap the benefits, market forces will ensure that all manufacturers do the same. Moreover, the number of car manufacturers are limited, but the number of battery companies can expand a lot. Perhaps lead way to investments from overseas. Imagine Tesla being able to open a battery factory in India, and just sell batteries, without worrying about cars and all.
    - thewhitetulip 6y ago
      You are either not Indian or you are ignoring everything to suit your narrative. The current government has put on a lot of regulation to "protect home grown e-tailers" when Ambani was planning to launch an Amazon competitor. Flipkart before they sold to Walmart had begged for years to give protection, but none was given, but when JioMart was to be launched, suddenly regulation was changed to benefit local e tailers, major benefactor was JioMart. > Imagine Tesla being able to open a battery factory in India, and just sell batteries, without worrying about cars and all. Hahahahahahahaha Due to stuoid red tape, Tesla took Gigafactory plans to China. 70% thungs were need to be locally sourced for starting Tesla factory in India and obviously we don't have the ecosystem. > By the logic you are stating, any business or market friendly move by any government will have to be targeted at specific individuals or families. Were you living under a rock when Telecom rules were being constantly flouted by Jio? All rules were specifically created to help Jio. The AGR case crippled telecos except Jio. Jio also has AGR but SC put the decision onto the govt for collecting or not. But others are forced to pay regardless if they go under. > The car company decides the interface. If a rival chooses to create an open interface, and reap the benefits, market forces will ensure that all manufacturers do the same. Hahahaha just like "anyone can start a startup in India. They can take Amazon AWS servers and domain from Godaddy and there won't be an issue. Just like "anyone can apply for a business license and start a manufacturing plant" You blisfully and maliciously ignore that the entire govt machinery has been working overtime to favour Ambani Adani. > Moreover, the number of car manufacturers are limited, but the number of battery companies can expand a lot Yeah and there can be many businesses which you can set up. Sure, all you ought to do is as for a license. Sure, govt won't twist rules to favour JioBattery and JioElectricCar
kumarvvr 6y ago
It decouples innovations between car and battery technology. Car manufacturers will only innovate batteries to the extent that fits their pricing and performance models. With the decoupling, the market for batteries will expand and different types of batteries for different performance / technologies will come into picture. But by making it legal to sell cars without batteries, it obliges car manufacturers to come up with data, certifications, technology transfer systems, etc to legally allow battery manufacturers to support their cars. This reduces a lot of paperwork and other red tape. For example, insurance. If you buy a car and change it's battery, your insurance provider may object for coverage or charge you extra for after market modifications. So, while the user has to buy the battery, he will have more choice. Also, new battery technology and new battery companies can grow with more ease. There are some downsides to this approach. Many vehicle dynamics and safety tests are conducted for the vehicle as a whole. So it has to be seen how those issues are addressed. However, since the location of the battery, in a given vehicle is fixed, I think coming up with a framework of certifications or standardized parameters for battery physicals should be easy. I think this law is primarily aimed at taxis and auto-rickshaws in many urban areas. Most of India's middle class still drives bikes and scooters. However, there are many taxis and autos. And these are usually very polluting. Shifting to an EV is usually more cost effective for the driver. The cost per kilometer of travel is lesser in EVs.
labby5 6y ago
In India, the most common vehicles are not cars, but mopeds/scooters. Unlike cars it is perfectly feasible to have battery swapping as your main/only form of refueling, and have the customers subscribe to your battery swap infrastructure instead of buying the battery. Its far more convenient for customers since you never need to wait to charge your vehicle, and you don't need to worry about having charging stations near your work or at home. This is precisely what gogoro, the most popular e-scooter company in Taiwan does. https://www.gogoro.com/ https://www.gogoro.com/
pengaru 6y ago
I see it as helping adoption by alleviating battery replacement anxiety. If the vehicle doesn't even come with a battery and you're able to acquire a standard battery from any number of competing vendors, you're a whole lot less afraid of buying an EV and not being able to replace its battery in five years because it's been obsoleted by the OEM.

Will force battery producers closer to customer. reduce gate keepers and strengthen supply chains. and yes reduces the cost and hence companies can offer batteries for rent

adrianmonk 6y ago
Would renting batteries be significantly cheaper than rolling battery cost into the pricing of the car? Isn't it a monthly payment either way?
- taneq 6y ago
  It makes the comparison with an ICE vehicle much more direct. Instead of "cheap car plus expensive fuel" vs. "expensive car plus cheap electricity", it's "car plus fuel" vs. "car plus battery rental". Also, just thinking about it now, it helps mitigate risk due to fluctuating demand because the cost to own and operate the vehicle scales down more at light usage.
  - addicted44 6y ago
    India also has extremely high interest rates. So there is a benefit in converting fixed upfront capital costs into rolling operational costs. In most developed countries consumers can convert those upfront costs easily and cheaply through loans. In a country like India, loans are much more expensive. Think of it like using cloud services instead of buying an upfront machine.
    - eru 6y ago
      > India also has extremely high interest rates. See https://tradingeconomics.com/india/real-interest-rate-percent-wb-data.html https://tradingeconomics.com/india/real-interest-rate-percen... for real (ie inflation adjusted) interest rates in India. They seem to be above 5% per year. That's high compared to the rest of the world. (Though I wouldn't say extremely high.)
      - spockz 6y ago
        Loans for cars are between 5.1% and 7.7% here in the Netherlands.[0] Loans for cars tend to be the cheapest loans after mortgage loans. So 6.9% (Number for 2020) doesn’t appear crazy high to me. [0]: https://www.ing.nl/particulier/lenen/jouw-leendoel/autolening/index.html https://www.ing.nl/particulier/lenen/jouw-leendoel/autolenin...
        eru 6y ago
        That's consumer lending. I don't know what benchmark tradingeconomics uses for the numbers I linked to. It's probably some kind of institutional lending, which tends to be much lower. Trading Economic say they took the data from the World Bank. See https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FR.INR.RINR?locations=IN-NL https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FR.INR.RINR?locations=I... for a comparison of real interest rates between the Netherland and India accordind to the World Bank. The Word Bank gives a bit of background: > Statistical Concept and Methodology: Many interest rates coexist in an economy, reflecting competitive conditions, the terms governing loans and deposits, and differences in the position and status of creditors and debtors. In some economies interest rates are set by regulation or administrative fiat. In economies with imperfect markets, or where reported nominal rates are not indicative of effective rates, it may be difficult to obtain data on interest rates that reflect actual market transactions. Deposit and lending rates are collected by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) as representative interest rates offered by banks to resident customers. The terms and conditions attached to these rates differ by country, however, limiting their comparability. Real interest rates are calculated by adjusting nominal rates by an estimate of the inflation rate in the economy. A negative real interest rate indicates a loss in the purchasing power of the principal. The real interest rates are calculated as (i - P) / (1 + P), where i is the nominal lending interest rate and P is the inflation rate (as measured by the GDP deflator). In 2009 the IMF began publishing a new presentation of monetary statistics for countries that report data in accordance with its Monetary Financial Statistical Manual 2000. The presentation for countries that report data in accordance with its International Financial Statistics (IFS) remains the same.
- kumarvvr 6y ago
  Not significantly cheaper, in fact renting would always include the cost of finance, that is borne by the battery OEM. However, renting allows for lower income earning sections of the society better access to EVs

smabie 6y ago

Maybe you could rent them? I dunno. Probably it won't help.

catmanjan 6y ago

Aftermarket/second hand batteries maybe

EE84M3i 6y ago
Don't car batteries have the printer cartridge problem where they have chips in them and must be sourced first party?
- addicted44 6y ago
  India's is an extremely price conscious market. Companies that raise prices by doing that will be beaten by companies that don't very quickly. Alternatively, combined with the much weaker law enforcement, "illegal" (I'm not sure about the legality of cracking copy protections here) copies will flourish if it's close to being feasible, which it could be.

elihu 6y ago

Maybe it makes it easier to buy and have cars shipped from outside the country, since batteries are hazardous materials? Or maybe locally-made batteries are cheaper? The opposite might be the case as well, maybe the cars are easy to manufacture locally but they import the batteries from China or wherever? Or maybe just decoupling the batteries from the car enables more consumer choice. I wish the article had some hint about the actual motivation for this policy, but I could imagine several scenarios where it could be beneficial.

murrayb 6y ago

Not sure how Govt duty works in India but if it is anything like in Australia removing the battery would make the vehicle cheaper and thus reduce the amount of duty paid.

kumarvvr 6y ago
There is no road tax for EVs in India. But batteries would attract 18% tax during purchase. However, the govt. may give a rebate on that too.

mattnewton 6y ago

It will allow companies to compete above their scale if they don’t own huge battery operations, and probably force standard battery interfaces / easy customer install. That could make swapping batteries practical depending on the design.

thewhitetulip 6y ago
Considering that the ruling party is BJP (equivalent to US Republicans), this move will directly help Ambani & Adani. There won't be any tight competition or open interface, it'll be a monopoly by the two business groups who support him the most.
- kumarvvr 6y ago
  This statement is ignorant at best. What looks like a sound business decision, one which opens up the market for more competition, you are twisting it as a politically motivated corrupt move. By the logic you are stating, any business or market friendly move by any government will have to be targeted at specific individuals or families. I really want to understand why there will not be any competition or open interface. The car company decides the interface. If a rival chooses to create an open interface, and reap the benefits, market forces will ensure that all manufacturers do the same. Moreover, the number of car manufacturers are limited, but the number of battery companies can expand a lot. Perhaps lead way to investments from overseas. Imagine Tesla being able to open a battery factory in India, and just sell batteries, without worrying about cars and all.
  - thewhitetulip 6y ago
    You are either not Indian or you are ignoring everything to suit your narrative. The current government has put on a lot of regulation to "protect home grown e-tailers" when Ambani was planning to launch an Amazon competitor. Flipkart before they sold to Walmart had begged for years to give protection, but none was given, but when JioMart was to be launched, suddenly regulation was changed to benefit local e tailers, major benefactor was JioMart. > Imagine Tesla being able to open a battery factory in India, and just sell batteries, without worrying about cars and all. Hahahahahahahaha Due to stuoid red tape, Tesla took Gigafactory plans to China. 70% thungs were need to be locally sourced for starting Tesla factory in India and obviously we don't have the ecosystem. > By the logic you are stating, any business or market friendly move by any government will have to be targeted at specific individuals or families. Were you living under a rock when Telecom rules were being constantly flouted by Jio? All rules were specifically created to help Jio. The AGR case crippled telecos except Jio. Jio also has AGR but SC put the decision onto the govt for collecting or not. But others are forced to pay regardless if they go under. > The car company decides the interface. If a rival chooses to create an open interface, and reap the benefits, market forces will ensure that all manufacturers do the same. Hahahaha just like "anyone can start a startup in India. They can take Amazon AWS servers and domain from Godaddy and there won't be an issue. Just like "anyone can apply for a business license and start a manufacturing plant" You blisfully and maliciously ignore that the entire govt machinery has been working overtime to favour Ambani Adani. > Moreover, the number of car manufacturers are limited, but the number of battery companies can expand a lot Yeah and there can be many businesses which you can set up. Sure, all you ought to do is as for a license. Sure, govt won't twist rules to favour JioBattery and JioElectricCar

kumarvvr 6y ago

It decouples innovations between car and battery technology. Car manufacturers will only innovate batteries to the extent that fits their pricing and performance models. With the decoupling, the market for batteries will expand and different types of batteries for different performance / technologies will come into picture. But by making it legal to sell cars without batteries, it obliges car manufacturers to come up with data, certifications, technology transfer systems, etc to legally allow battery manufacturers to support their cars. This reduces a lot of paperwork and other red tape. For example, insurance. If you buy a car and change it's battery, your insurance provider may object for coverage or charge you extra for after market modifications. So, while the user has to buy the battery, he will have more choice. Also, new battery technology and new battery companies can grow with more ease. There are some downsides to this approach. Many vehicle dynamics and safety tests are conducted for the vehicle as a whole. So it has to be seen how those issues are addressed. However, since the location of the battery, in a given vehicle is fixed, I think coming up with a framework of certifications or standardized parameters for battery physicals should be easy. I think this law is primarily aimed at taxis and auto-rickshaws in many urban areas. Most of India's middle class still drives bikes and scooters. However, there are many taxis and autos. And these are usually very polluting. Shifting to an EV is usually more cost effective for the driver. The cost per kilometer of travel is lesser in EVs.

labby5 6y ago

In India, the most common vehicles are not cars, but mopeds/scooters. Unlike cars it is perfectly feasible to have battery swapping as your main/only form of refueling, and have the customers subscribe to your battery swap infrastructure instead of buying the battery. Its far more convenient for customers since you never need to wait to charge your vehicle, and you don't need to worry about having charging stations near your work or at home. This is precisely what gogoro, the most popular e-scooter company in Taiwan does. https://www.gogoro.com/ https://www.gogoro.com/

pengaru 6y ago

I see it as helping adoption by alleviating battery replacement anxiety. If the vehicle doesn't even come with a battery and you're able to acquire a standard battery from any number of competing vendors, you're a whole lot less afraid of buying an EV and not being able to replace its battery in five years because it's been obsoleted by the OEM.