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It's stunning your union would permit this shit. It's no wonder Americans in general are so sour on unions if this is a representative experience.

MiroF 6y ago
Unions are hard because employers can basically do whatever the fuck they want to fight the union and they usually only get the NLRB injunction/penalty months/years later, after everyone originally supporting the action has been removed by the company. Some unions are also just in the pocket of management. I have friends who are teamster organizers and they've told me some managers in some industries will actually request unions.
- hyperdimension 6y ago
  > Some unions are also just in the pocket of management. I honestly believe you on this point, but that is just so crazy that I'd be curious as to the turn of events that would turn out to the union selling out its soul so completely. Unless, of course, that was their intended goal. It just seems so antithetical to the theoretical principles of a union.
  - MiroF 6y ago
    I think it's not the union that has sold its soul so much as targeting specific individuals who are important in governing a certain local or something, and getting them to sell out. See, for instance, https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/business/gm-fiat-chrysler-lawsuit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/business/gm-fiat-chrysler... > General Motors has accused Fiat Chrysler of bribing union officials to get a leg up on G.M. in contract negotiations, contending in a lawsuit that its competitor paid for the union’s negotiating team to have a $7,000 dinner shortly after concluding a labor agreement. Fiat Chrysler has called the suit meritless. I think many are interpreting my comment as anti-union, which it was not meant to be. Unions can be coopted by management, but better to have some sort of worker council/representation than none at all.
- tdeck 6y ago
  To expand a bit, a union is supposed to be democratic - the workers themselves organize to promote their own interests. But many unions that remain these days have become professionalized. They have their own well-paid administration and lobbyists, and their levers of power are political contributions and signing restrictive long-term contracts with employers. Here is an article I found that goes into this: https://www.labornotes.org/2002/06/corporatization-unions https://www.labornotes.org/2002/06/corporatization-unions
  - MiroF 6y ago
    > their levers of power are political contributions and signing restrictive long-term contracts with employers. I'm curious how you think this differs from traditional practices, generally i think of signing security clauses + political influence as basic union 101. There've always been professional organizers as long as there've been unions. They're hardly "well-paid" by private standards.
    - tdeck 6y ago
      Both styles of union have a long history, but the alternative practice is to rely more heavily on strikes and other workplace actions, and less on pay-to-play politics. It may be "union 101" to sign no-strike clauses but there are unions like the IWW that have always rejected them.
      - zaarn 6y ago
        What you need is a union law similar to germany. In germany, when you apply to a job where a union has created a union employee contract (ie, standardized pay, standardized hours & benefits), then you can choose to use that contract even if you are not part of the union and you are entitled to still do your own contract even if you are in the union. The only time you have to accept certain parts in your contract no choice is if they are mandated by the worker's council, which is voted for democratically by workers from and for a specific company and they can veto anything the company does or demand changes with a 50% share in board votes.
dawnerd 6y ago
From what I’ve seen with friends in the amusement industry, the unions don’t really work for them and in some cases are run by the company itself (not directly but with directors that have obvious conflicts).
lotsofpulp 6y ago
I’m more ashamed of the legislature that allows this to happen. There’s no reason an employer should not have the pay the minute they expect something of the employee, assuming it’s a position paid per unit of time.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  The problem is that you get into things that aren’t part of your duties that are still expected of you. Such as commuting to and from work; It’s necessary to commute, but it’s not part of your duties. It’s unsettled (in America) what’s the right answer to that, but an argument against it I’ve heard is: if you get a job and the employer agrees to pay for a 10 minute commute twice per shift, but you then move 30 minutes away, why should the employer be on the hook for that extra 20 minutes (40 per shift)?
  - Tostino 6y ago
    Commute has pretty much not been on the negotiating table as far as I understand for most positions. The only time I've seen commute being paid is for workers who need to travel to the job site. Even then it's generally that you travel unpaid to the office, then you are paid for the travel time from there to the job site.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Commuting isn’t expected of you. Being at a certain place at a certain time is. Once you’re there at that time, the clock starts, but I’ve never heard anyone argue that an employer is responsible for your commute.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      My point was: if we take the “expected of you” further, someone will argue that we should pay for your commute. And yes, commuting isn’t expected, but unless you’re living at your job, you have to commute. So, saying “a commute isn’t expected, but being on time is” doesn’t make sense. Not to mention, there are times where an employer is required to pay for your commute. The biggest is travel that is required to do your job, such as a door-to-door salesperson. That could lead to: if a commute is practically required to do your job (your house to your place of work), why not pay for that? I personally don’t have an opinion on this; I’m just playing devil’s advocate.
godzillabrennus 6y ago
Not to mention the mafia ran most of the powerful unions in America before the feds destroyed that type of organized crime. I sometimes wonder if despite the brutality of their tactics, did the mafia help the working class more than hurt it?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

MiroF 6y ago

Unions are hard because employers can basically do whatever the fuck they want to fight the union and they usually only get the NLRB injunction/penalty months/years later, after everyone originally supporting the action has been removed by the company. Some unions are also just in the pocket of management. I have friends who are teamster organizers and they've told me some managers in some industries will actually request unions.

hyperdimension 6y ago
> Some unions are also just in the pocket of management. I honestly believe you on this point, but that is just so crazy that I'd be curious as to the turn of events that would turn out to the union selling out its soul so completely. Unless, of course, that was their intended goal. It just seems so antithetical to the theoretical principles of a union.
- MiroF 6y ago
  I think it's not the union that has sold its soul so much as targeting specific individuals who are important in governing a certain local or something, and getting them to sell out. See, for instance, https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/business/gm-fiat-chrysler-lawsuit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/business/gm-fiat-chrysler... > General Motors has accused Fiat Chrysler of bribing union officials to get a leg up on G.M. in contract negotiations, contending in a lawsuit that its competitor paid for the union’s negotiating team to have a $7,000 dinner shortly after concluding a labor agreement. Fiat Chrysler has called the suit meritless. I think many are interpreting my comment as anti-union, which it was not meant to be. Unions can be coopted by management, but better to have some sort of worker council/representation than none at all.
tdeck 6y ago
To expand a bit, a union is supposed to be democratic - the workers themselves organize to promote their own interests. But many unions that remain these days have become professionalized. They have their own well-paid administration and lobbyists, and their levers of power are political contributions and signing restrictive long-term contracts with employers. Here is an article I found that goes into this: https://www.labornotes.org/2002/06/corporatization-unions https://www.labornotes.org/2002/06/corporatization-unions
- MiroF 6y ago
  > their levers of power are political contributions and signing restrictive long-term contracts with employers. I'm curious how you think this differs from traditional practices, generally i think of signing security clauses + political influence as basic union 101. There've always been professional organizers as long as there've been unions. They're hardly "well-paid" by private standards.
  - tdeck 6y ago
    Both styles of union have a long history, but the alternative practice is to rely more heavily on strikes and other workplace actions, and less on pay-to-play politics. It may be "union 101" to sign no-strike clauses but there are unions like the IWW that have always rejected them.
    - zaarn 6y ago
      What you need is a union law similar to germany. In germany, when you apply to a job where a union has created a union employee contract (ie, standardized pay, standardized hours & benefits), then you can choose to use that contract even if you are not part of the union and you are entitled to still do your own contract even if you are in the union. The only time you have to accept certain parts in your contract no choice is if they are mandated by the worker's council, which is voted for democratically by workers from and for a specific company and they can veto anything the company does or demand changes with a 50% share in board votes.

dawnerd 6y ago

From what I’ve seen with friends in the amusement industry, the unions don’t really work for them and in some cases are run by the company itself (not directly but with directors that have obvious conflicts).

lotsofpulp 6y ago

I’m more ashamed of the legislature that allows this to happen. There’s no reason an employer should not have the pay the minute they expect something of the employee, assuming it’s a position paid per unit of time.

colejohnson66 6y ago
The problem is that you get into things that aren’t part of your duties that are still expected of you. Such as commuting to and from work; It’s necessary to commute, but it’s not part of your duties. It’s unsettled (in America) what’s the right answer to that, but an argument against it I’ve heard is: if you get a job and the employer agrees to pay for a 10 minute commute twice per shift, but you then move 30 minutes away, why should the employer be on the hook for that extra 20 minutes (40 per shift)?
- Tostino 6y ago
  Commute has pretty much not been on the negotiating table as far as I understand for most positions. The only time I've seen commute being paid is for workers who need to travel to the job site. Even then it's generally that you travel unpaid to the office, then you are paid for the travel time from there to the job site.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Commuting isn’t expected of you. Being at a certain place at a certain time is. Once you’re there at that time, the clock starts, but I’ve never heard anyone argue that an employer is responsible for your commute.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    My point was: if we take the “expected of you” further, someone will argue that we should pay for your commute. And yes, commuting isn’t expected, but unless you’re living at your job, you have to commute. So, saying “a commute isn’t expected, but being on time is” doesn’t make sense. Not to mention, there are times where an employer is required to pay for your commute. The biggest is travel that is required to do your job, such as a door-to-door salesperson. That could lead to: if a commute is practically required to do your job (your house to your place of work), why not pay for that? I personally don’t have an opinion on this; I’m just playing devil’s advocate.

godzillabrennus 6y ago

Not to mention the mafia ran most of the powerful unions in America before the feds destroyed that type of organized crime. I sometimes wonder if despite the brutality of their tactics, did the mafia help the working class more than hurt it?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]