4 ms·

This dovetails with something I've been thinking much about recently: providing a classical education, or at least a dose of it, to my kids. Jefferson was a big

This dovetails with something I've been thinking much about recently: providing a classical education, or at least a dose of it, to my kids. Jefferson was a big proponent of this as well [0] My reasoning is that there are few other venues that young people, in their formative years, encounter such examples of deep critical thinking. I used to think it snobbery to reference Socrates/Plato/Aristotle, etc. But reading the Republic, Apology, Ethics, etc. really prompts you to think about your life and how it relates to other in a society in a very meaningful way. It also teaches you to be more critical of all ideas. It seems to me that such perspectives are more important now than they've ever been. Jefferson and others have espoused the idea that an educated populace is required for a functioning democracy. While that may have been true in the 18th century, it is certainly more poignant in a world where people have an instant and unending stream of comment and opinion coming to them wherever they are. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_education#Views_on_classical_learning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_education...

simonsarris 6y ago
A classical and a mythological education are both important and missing today. I wrote recently: > A mythological education is distinct from the common school subjects. It builds in the mind intuition for second-order effects, for the first lesson a child learns from one hundred stories is that every thing you do will have unintended consequences, something years of schoolwork fails to teach. Myths give us shared art and common culture—a set of characters with which we can play in and enjoy together. In any culture rich with myths, their vocabulary is enlarged far beyond words, to allegories and metaphors. The quality of thought follows. (To this end I've been writing a book of fables, mostly for my children, but serializing them by newsletter right now, which is turning out more popular than I expected.)
- sixstringtheory 6y ago
  I think this is very insightful, and is touched on quite a bit in Harari's Sapiens, which is alluded to in a sibling to parent post, which also mentions Jefferson: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24364993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24364993 I picked up an old copy of Grimm's Tales on a whim and read some every now and then before bedtime. Also Aesop's fables just to refresh my memory of them. I enjoy them both and think it's a worthwhile format.
- Izkata 6y ago
  > Myths give us shared art and common culture—a set of characters with which we can play in and enjoy together. In any culture rich with myths, their vocabulary is enlarged far beyond words, to allegories and metaphors. Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
- unethical_ban 6y ago
  Darmok and Gilad, at Tinagra. This has been a discussion for some time with my friends, the utility of religion in humanity for social purposes and communications purposes. I hadn't thought much of the importance of "studying the classics" to the ends of teaching cultural vocabulary, but I do think critical thinking and logic should be core subjects like math and reading.
antipaul 6y ago
We have a hard time talking to each other these days (eg, Republicans vs Democrats in US). So I also feel that education, specifically a liberal arts foundation, could broaden people’s minds so that we’re not just shouting at each other, but can actually converse as somewhat rational beings.
- Loughla 6y ago
  But this boils down to initially defining the "purpose" of education. The US can't even agree on what the purpose of education is. Many see it as you do - broaden minds and encourage thinking. Many others see it as life-skills 'training' designed to teach adult survival skills. Still others think education should point specifically, and directly to work, or, in other words, be 'job-skills' based. We don't even have a clear understanding of what is best, nor do we have an agreement on when each serves its best purpose. The whole thing is a mess.
  - waterheater 6y ago
    Just the USA? Humanity has differences on the purposes of education. For example, should education only be for men? In some parts of the world, yes. >The whole thing is a mess. Then let's use different terms to refer to the reality of these differences. Here's a first crack: Educating includes broadening minds and encouraging thinking. Training includes the dictation of knowledge and application of specific skills. Learning "life-skills" is a specific but important part of training. All educating includes training, but not all training includes education. The terms "education" and "training" are often conflated and should not be.
rement 6y ago
This reminds me of a T.S. Eliot quote > Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? > Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
busterarm 6y ago
Unschooling/Home-schooling + https://www.sjc.edu/ https://www.sjc.edu/ (if they want to) IMO
- burkaman 6y ago
  Looking at https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/great-books-reading-list https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/great-bo..., this is definitely a good list of "foundational texts of Western civilization" as they say, but the world is a lot more interconnected than it was in 1696, and this curriculum leaves out most of it. There's nothing wrong with studying one part of the world or one community of ideas as long as you're open about it, but I don't think I would be comfortable calling this a well rounded education in the modern world. The about page says "students study the works of history’s greatest thinkers." I mean, come on. There's not a single "great thinker" in all of history outside of Europe, the Roman Empire, and the US? How are you supposed to defend the ideas of Western Civilization if you have no idea what the alternatives are? It reminds me a little of some culinary schools where the whole curriculum is based on French cooking, and you take like one class on "global cuisine" that covers the entire rest of the world. You can't pick one focus area and claim it's all you need for a full education.
  - busterarm 6y ago
    > It reminds me a little of some culinary schools where the whole curriculum is based on French cooking, and you take like one class on "global cuisine" that covers the entire rest of the world. You can't pick one focus area and claim it's all you need for a full education. Who said school had anything to do with having a full education? That's kind of the whole point of the unschooling movement. Culinary Schools primarily focus the curriculum around French cooking because thats the predominant skillset that you will be required to know to work in a volume, commercial kitchen. French cooking training is a broad test of their ability to execute important techniques. It's fitting the curriculum to the students and the expectations that they have. If you're in culinary school to begin with, you probably care about food and you will be able to teach yourself the rest from that base. SJC is the same way. They're fitting the curriculum to the expectations and desires of their incoming students. The whole point of that education is to teach you how to think for yourself, not to fill your head with data points. School, ...ANY... school, is just about establishing a baseline to make you comparable against your peers. Rigorous education has very little to do with it. In both cases, I don't think you really understand the point of what you're looking at.

simonsarris 6y ago

A classical and a mythological education are both important and missing today. I wrote recently: > A mythological education is distinct from the common school subjects. It builds in the mind intuition for second-order effects, for the first lesson a child learns from one hundred stories is that every thing you do will have unintended consequences, something years of schoolwork fails to teach. Myths give us shared art and common culture—a set of characters with which we can play in and enjoy together. In any culture rich with myths, their vocabulary is enlarged far beyond words, to allegories and metaphors. The quality of thought follows. (To this end I've been writing a book of fables, mostly for my children, but serializing them by newsletter right now, which is turning out more popular than I expected.)

sixstringtheory 6y ago
I think this is very insightful, and is touched on quite a bit in Harari's Sapiens, which is alluded to in a sibling to parent post, which also mentions Jefferson: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24364993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24364993 I picked up an old copy of Grimm's Tales on a whim and read some every now and then before bedtime. Also Aesop's fables just to refresh my memory of them. I enjoy them both and think it's a worthwhile format.
Izkata 6y ago
> Myths give us shared art and common culture—a set of characters with which we can play in and enjoy together. In any culture rich with myths, their vocabulary is enlarged far beyond words, to allegories and metaphors. Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
unethical_ban 6y ago
Darmok and Gilad, at Tinagra. This has been a discussion for some time with my friends, the utility of religion in humanity for social purposes and communications purposes. I hadn't thought much of the importance of "studying the classics" to the ends of teaching cultural vocabulary, but I do think critical thinking and logic should be core subjects like math and reading.

antipaul 6y ago

We have a hard time talking to each other these days (eg, Republicans vs Democrats in US). So I also feel that education, specifically a liberal arts foundation, could broaden people’s minds so that we’re not just shouting at each other, but can actually converse as somewhat rational beings.

Loughla 6y ago
But this boils down to initially defining the "purpose" of education. The US can't even agree on what the purpose of education is. Many see it as you do - broaden minds and encourage thinking. Many others see it as life-skills 'training' designed to teach adult survival skills. Still others think education should point specifically, and directly to work, or, in other words, be 'job-skills' based. We don't even have a clear understanding of what is best, nor do we have an agreement on when each serves its best purpose. The whole thing is a mess.
- waterheater 6y ago
  Just the USA? Humanity has differences on the purposes of education. For example, should education only be for men? In some parts of the world, yes. >The whole thing is a mess. Then let's use different terms to refer to the reality of these differences. Here's a first crack: Educating includes broadening minds and encouraging thinking. Training includes the dictation of knowledge and application of specific skills. Learning "life-skills" is a specific but important part of training. All educating includes training, but not all training includes education. The terms "education" and "training" are often conflated and should not be.

rement 6y ago

This reminds me of a T.S. Eliot quote > Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? > Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?

busterarm 6y ago

Unschooling/Home-schooling + https://www.sjc.edu/ https://www.sjc.edu/ (if they want to) IMO

burkaman 6y ago
Looking at https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/great-books-reading-list https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/great-bo..., this is definitely a good list of "foundational texts of Western civilization" as they say, but the world is a lot more interconnected than it was in 1696, and this curriculum leaves out most of it. There's nothing wrong with studying one part of the world or one community of ideas as long as you're open about it, but I don't think I would be comfortable calling this a well rounded education in the modern world. The about page says "students study the works of history’s greatest thinkers." I mean, come on. There's not a single "great thinker" in all of history outside of Europe, the Roman Empire, and the US? How are you supposed to defend the ideas of Western Civilization if you have no idea what the alternatives are? It reminds me a little of some culinary schools where the whole curriculum is based on French cooking, and you take like one class on "global cuisine" that covers the entire rest of the world. You can't pick one focus area and claim it's all you need for a full education.
- busterarm 6y ago
  > It reminds me a little of some culinary schools where the whole curriculum is based on French cooking, and you take like one class on "global cuisine" that covers the entire rest of the world. You can't pick one focus area and claim it's all you need for a full education. Who said school had anything to do with having a full education? That's kind of the whole point of the unschooling movement. Culinary Schools primarily focus the curriculum around French cooking because thats the predominant skillset that you will be required to know to work in a volume, commercial kitchen. French cooking training is a broad test of their ability to execute important techniques. It's fitting the curriculum to the students and the expectations that they have. If you're in culinary school to begin with, you probably care about food and you will be able to teach yourself the rest from that base. SJC is the same way. They're fitting the curriculum to the expectations and desires of their incoming students. The whole point of that education is to teach you how to think for yourself, not to fill your head with data points. School, ...ANY... school, is just about establishing a baseline to make you comparable against your peers. Rigorous education has very little to do with it. In both cases, I don't think you really understand the point of what you're looking at.