6 ms·

Threema Goes Open Source

141 points by turrini 6y ago

detaro 6y ago
Now that's an interesting change. More investment is always a bit worrysome due to "and what's the plan to make money", but Threema IMHO is nice to use and being open would be good for trust and thus maybe also adoption.
- rawfan 6y ago
  Well, they already have a working money making scheme. Going opensource doesn't change that. Threema has 3 sources of income AFAIK. A per install fee for regular users, a special client for enterprise users and the same for schools. Not a money-printing machine but pretty sure a steady income.
  - detaro 6y ago
    I very much hope that it works, and will continue to work! If I remember correctly they also sell API access, e.g. for bots or service accounts, but that probably is not a big thing given the comparatively small current user base.
  - est31 6y ago
    To put it into numbers: they have approximately 8 million accounts [0]. A license costs 4€ now, but it used to be cheaper (2€), so using the older number and subtracting fees and taxes, gives us 11 million € of revenue in the past half decade. That's not a giant number, but enough to support development of an app like this. [0]: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/445619/umfrage/nutzer-des-schweizer-messaging-dienstes-threema/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/445619/umfrag...
    - veddox 6y ago
      Plus, the enterprise version is a subscription.
  - viro 6y ago
    > A per install fee for regular users It was hard enough to get my friends to use signal and that was free. While I really do like Threema, The fact that it cost money on iOS makes it hard for me to push on my friend group.
    - cryo 6y ago
      Same here it's sad but I don't know a single person who would pay (and oh boy donate) for such an app. They are completely unaware/blind that developers need to eat too. It's not even about the price: 50ct would be too much. In fact 99% of all my friends/family circle never payed for any app.
    - est31 6y ago
      It's so weird. If you go to a bar with your friends you pay more for a single beer, and people spend so much time on these apps.
      - ffpip 6y ago
        The problem is not with the cost. If if it was the lowest possible amount on the Play store, people wouldn't buy it. It's the idea of paying for apps that is not so widely adopted. I haven't even setup a payment method in the play store.
        est31 6y ago
        I haven't either. I don't even have the play store. I've bought it through their website with paypal.
    - TheWickerMan 6y ago
      I have similar minded friends. They have no issue dropping a bunch of money on some cosmetics in a game or random garbage that gets thrown away immediately. So i ended up just buying a bunch of licenses for threema and giving them away. I know that isn’t an option for everyone but it was how i was able to convert my friends over. It isn’t a big issue for me to do that. Even with buying 10 licenses, it is a small enough amount that its easy to budget for. Plus, i like to support companies and developers who (at least to me) seem to care.
est31 6y ago
This is really big news. I use Threema because it is the only messenger out there that is: a) always end to end encrypted (unlike Telegram) b) supports account creation without any phone number (unlike Signal) c) supports phones without google messaging service (unlike Signal, it formally supports it as well but in reality it's just a big battery drain) It not being open source was always a bit sad for me, because most of the other apps on my phone are open source. I'm curious about the multi device sync. I hope that it will be implemented in a way that doesn't use passwords but pair syncing. This is bad from a usability perspective (firefox abandoned it because of usability), but the only way I'm aware of how syncing can be made secure.
- tweetle_beetle 6y ago
  Out of curiosity what does Threema do that Element[1] (née Riot.im) doesn't? It seems to tick those boxes, but admittedly is still in quite active development and may not be as polished. [1]https://element.io/ https://element.io/
  - detaro 6y ago
    It did these things years before Riot did for starters. It does less, but well-polished IMHO.
    - tweetle_beetle 6y ago
      Right you are. I like to think that I'm fairly knowledgeable in this space, but Threema totally passed me by. Maybe it's more popular in german speaking communities (or I'm just more than I thought)?
      - gravitas 6y ago
        Threema is a pay-to-play client on the App stores ($3 USD on Google Play, €4 on the Apple store), inhibiting it's adoption when the playing field is full of free clients. The inability to try-before-buy (regardless of technical merit) turns away casual users who might give it a shot "just because", myself included. (Theory: the world has been burnt a thousand times over by shitty ad-infested mobile apps and no longer trusts buying before trying. I sure don't.)
blakesterz 6y ago
"...and an acceleration of the product development thanks to the entry of the German-Swiss investment company Afinum Management AG." Can anyone explain what Afinum is/does? They're just a place that buys parts of any type of thing? "We invest in small- and medium-sized companies. Because we are one of them." That just left me wondering if anyone has heard of them? https://afinum.de/en/portfolios/ https://afinum.de/en/portfolios/
- codethief 6y ago
  Unfortunately, Northdata doesn't provide much information, either (Posting the German version since the English one provides even less info): https://www.northdata.de/Afinum+Management+AG,+Z%C3%BCrich/CHE-112.803.035 https://www.northdata.de/Afinum+Management+AG,+Z%C3%BCrich/C... https://www.northdata.de/Afinum+Management+GmbH,+M%C3%BCnchen/HRB+129510 https://www.northdata.de/Afinum+Management+GmbH,+M%C3%BCnche...
- wasmitnetzen 6y ago
  I'm German, and mildly interested in investing. Never heard of them, but I have heard of three of the companies (Ledlenser, Görtz, SIGG) in their portfolio. I would call all those three companies solid high-quality manufacturers. So I'm slightly optimistic.
frabbit 6y ago
They might want to play down the "Swiss == secure" angle, e.g. from the About Precision, reliability, and discretion are typical Swiss characteristics, and as a true Swiss company, Threema lives these values every day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG Personally I am happy with Riot.im/Element Matrix. Is there some feature which distinguishes Threema from it?
tehabe 6y ago
I don't know yet, in the announcement they didn't qualify what open source means for them. Will the complete client be open source? Will only parts of the client be open source? what about the server? which license will be used? We'll have to wait and see if this is useful or just marketing for the company.
- soziawa 6y ago
  > Within the next months, the Threema apps will become fully open source, supporting reproducible builds. Probably one that only allows creating builds for reproducibility. Which is perfectly fine in my opinion, as they are supported by app sales instead of donations like Signal.
nemoniac 6y ago
Could someone with experience of Threema comment on the quality of its voice and video calls, especially for group calls of up to a dozen or so participants?
- dbrgn 6y ago
  Threema currently only supports one-to-one calls (both voice and video). Quality is great if your network connection is good and if both participants are in an unmetered network.
- olah_1 6y ago
  Slightly off-topic, but interesting. Threema contributed back to web-rtc with security improvements they made for video calls. https://webrtc-review.googlesource.com/c/src/+/177980 https://webrtc-review.googlesource.com/c/src/+/177980
- soziawa 6y ago
  No group calls, but one to one calls have constant bit rate encoding which is considered to be more secure. Quality is amazing on good networks and not worse than others like WA or Wire on bad ones.
- jiehong 6y ago
  Significantly better quality than WhatsApp for example (one-to-one calls, recordings).

141 points by turrini 6y ago

Now that's an interesting change. More investment is always a bit worrysome due to "and what's the plan to make money", but Threema IMHO is nice to use and being open would be good for trust and thus maybe also adoption.

rawfan 6y ago
Well, they already have a working money making scheme. Going opensource doesn't change that. Threema has 3 sources of income AFAIK. A per install fee for regular users, a special client for enterprise users and the same for schools. Not a money-printing machine but pretty sure a steady income.
- detaro 6y ago
  I very much hope that it works, and will continue to work! If I remember correctly they also sell API access, e.g. for bots or service accounts, but that probably is not a big thing given the comparatively small current user base.
- est31 6y ago
  To put it into numbers: they have approximately 8 million accounts [0]. A license costs 4€ now, but it used to be cheaper (2€), so using the older number and subtracting fees and taxes, gives us 11 million € of revenue in the past half decade. That's not a giant number, but enough to support development of an app like this. [0]: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/445619/umfrage/nutzer-des-schweizer-messaging-dienstes-threema/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/445619/umfrag...
  - veddox 6y ago
    Plus, the enterprise version is a subscription.
- viro 6y ago
  > A per install fee for regular users It was hard enough to get my friends to use signal and that was free. While I really do like Threema, The fact that it cost money on iOS makes it hard for me to push on my friend group.
  - cryo 6y ago
    Same here it's sad but I don't know a single person who would pay (and oh boy donate) for such an app. They are completely unaware/blind that developers need to eat too. It's not even about the price: 50ct would be too much. In fact 99% of all my friends/family circle never payed for any app.
  - est31 6y ago
    It's so weird. If you go to a bar with your friends you pay more for a single beer, and people spend so much time on these apps.
    - ffpip 6y ago
      The problem is not with the cost. If if it was the lowest possible amount on the Play store, people wouldn't buy it. It's the idea of paying for apps that is not so widely adopted. I haven't even setup a payment method in the play store.
      - est31 6y ago
        I haven't either. I don't even have the play store. I've bought it through their website with paypal.
  - TheWickerMan 6y ago
    I have similar minded friends. They have no issue dropping a bunch of money on some cosmetics in a game or random garbage that gets thrown away immediately. So i ended up just buying a bunch of licenses for threema and giving them away. I know that isn’t an option for everyone but it was how i was able to convert my friends over. It isn’t a big issue for me to do that. Even with buying 10 licenses, it is a small enough amount that its easy to budget for. Plus, i like to support companies and developers who (at least to me) seem to care.

est31 6y ago

This is really big news. I use Threema because it is the only messenger out there that is: a) always end to end encrypted (unlike Telegram) b) supports account creation without any phone number (unlike Signal) c) supports phones without google messaging service (unlike Signal, it formally supports it as well but in reality it's just a big battery drain) It not being open source was always a bit sad for me, because most of the other apps on my phone are open source. I'm curious about the multi device sync. I hope that it will be implemented in a way that doesn't use passwords but pair syncing. This is bad from a usability perspective (firefox abandoned it because of usability), but the only way I'm aware of how syncing can be made secure.

tweetle_beetle 6y ago
Out of curiosity what does Threema do that Element[1] (née Riot.im) doesn't? It seems to tick those boxes, but admittedly is still in quite active development and may not be as polished. [1]https://element.io/ https://element.io/
- detaro 6y ago
  It did these things years before Riot did for starters. It does less, but well-polished IMHO.
  - tweetle_beetle 6y ago
    Right you are. I like to think that I'm fairly knowledgeable in this space, but Threema totally passed me by. Maybe it's more popular in german speaking communities (or I'm just more than I thought)?
    - gravitas 6y ago
      Threema is a pay-to-play client on the App stores ($3 USD on Google Play, €4 on the Apple store), inhibiting it's adoption when the playing field is full of free clients. The inability to try-before-buy (regardless of technical merit) turns away casual users who might give it a shot "just because", myself included. (Theory: the world has been burnt a thousand times over by shitty ad-infested mobile apps and no longer trusts buying before trying. I sure don't.)

blakesterz 6y ago

"...and an acceleration of the product development thanks to the entry of the German-Swiss investment company Afinum Management AG." Can anyone explain what Afinum is/does? They're just a place that buys parts of any type of thing? "We invest in small- and medium-sized companies. Because we are one of them." That just left me wondering if anyone has heard of them? https://afinum.de/en/portfolios/ https://afinum.de/en/portfolios/

codethief 6y ago
Unfortunately, Northdata doesn't provide much information, either (Posting the German version since the English one provides even less info): https://www.northdata.de/Afinum+Management+AG,+Z%C3%BCrich/CHE-112.803.035 https://www.northdata.de/Afinum+Management+AG,+Z%C3%BCrich/C... https://www.northdata.de/Afinum+Management+GmbH,+M%C3%BCnchen/HRB+129510 https://www.northdata.de/Afinum+Management+GmbH,+M%C3%BCnche...
wasmitnetzen 6y ago
I'm German, and mildly interested in investing. Never heard of them, but I have heard of three of the companies (Ledlenser, Görtz, SIGG) in their portfolio. I would call all those three companies solid high-quality manufacturers. So I'm slightly optimistic.

frabbit 6y ago

They might want to play down the "Swiss == secure" angle, e.g. from the About Precision, reliability, and discretion are typical Swiss characteristics, and as a true Swiss company, Threema lives these values every day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG Personally I am happy with Riot.im/Element Matrix. Is there some feature which distinguishes Threema from it?

tehabe 6y ago

I don't know yet, in the announcement they didn't qualify what open source means for them. Will the complete client be open source? Will only parts of the client be open source? what about the server? which license will be used? We'll have to wait and see if this is useful or just marketing for the company.

soziawa 6y ago
> Within the next months, the Threema apps will become fully open source, supporting reproducible builds. Probably one that only allows creating builds for reproducibility. Which is perfectly fine in my opinion, as they are supported by app sales instead of donations like Signal.

nemoniac 6y ago

Could someone with experience of Threema comment on the quality of its voice and video calls, especially for group calls of up to a dozen or so participants?

dbrgn 6y ago
Threema currently only supports one-to-one calls (both voice and video). Quality is great if your network connection is good and if both participants are in an unmetered network.
olah_1 6y ago
Slightly off-topic, but interesting. Threema contributed back to web-rtc with security improvements they made for video calls. https://webrtc-review.googlesource.com/c/src/+/177980 https://webrtc-review.googlesource.com/c/src/+/177980
soziawa 6y ago
No group calls, but one to one calls have constant bit rate encoding which is considered to be more secure. Quality is amazing on good networks and not worse than others like WA or Wire on bad ones.
jiehong 6y ago
Significantly better quality than WhatsApp for example (one-to-one calls, recordings).