7 ms·

At first I viewed the depression I started fighting in my teens as a scourge, a defect, something broken to be fixed. I have since come to see it as an importa

At first I viewed the depression I started fighting in my teens as a scourge, a defect, something broken to be fixed. I have since come to see it as an important signal. When I am managing my life and mental states well, it often fades into the background. When it starts to flare up, like with some kind of physical pain, that's telling me I need to pay attention and change things up a bit. Furthermore - and perhaps most importantly - it is a preferred failure mode to freaking out or engaging in suicidal ideation. When I'm overwhelmed by that gloom, I remind myself that I could have a stroke, aneurysm or heart attack at any moment, and I think about what the consequences would be if I did. As long as I'm in a safe situation, I can simply take my first opportunity to Just. Stop. Taking time to shut down, and to cease forcing yourself to engage with a world that would go on without you if you suddenly died, is a good idea now & then. Yeah, at times I feel some twinges of guilt for doing this. It seems selfish on the surface. But when you compare it to the alternatives, well-- it's better than being dead, isn't it? I feel like my ability to manage my life (and depression) has improved considerably with this insight. If you need to stop, stop. Rest. Let whatever is pushing you to the brink simmer in a corner for a while, provided it is physically safe to do so. You will be better equipped to deal with it when you've had a chance to breathe, and to remind yourself that a temporary shutdown is indeed better than being dead.

texasbigdata 6y ago
Very good book, “the Depths” about depression. It argues it’s partially an evolutionary response. Also “quiet” by Susan Cain is even more excellent and insightful about introverts.
podgaj 6y ago
Do you realize these two sentences say the same exact thing? You have a pain, which is a signal of a disorder, and you need to change something to fix it. "At first I viewed the depression I started fighting in my teens as a scourge, a defect, something broken to be fixed." "I have since come to see it as an important signal. When I am managing my life and mental states well, it often fades into the background. When it starts to flare up, like with some kind of physical pain, that's telling me I need to pay attention and change things up a bit."
- typicalset 6y ago
  I think these two sentences are different: it's analogous to treating a symptom vs treating an underlying condition.
  - podgaj 6y ago
    Yeah, I agree with that distinction. This is am important semantic discussion. But he just changed the name of the thing he wants to get rid of from "pain" to "signal". The signal is still a disorder. The signal is the thing that bothers us.
    - abdullahkhalids 6y ago
      I think they is saying that if you put your hand on a hot thing, you get a signal. You can also call it pain. But the problem is not an internal problem with your body, but a consequence of your environment. So change your environment or what you are doing and the pain will disappear. Don't try to keep your environment the same and try to change within. (I don't entirely agree with them, but that's my best summary of their argument).
- Solstinox 6y ago
  No. One sees the depression as something to be fixed, the other sees the underlying problem causing the depression as something to be fixed.
  - podgaj 6y ago
    Yeah, I agree. But the signal is still the disorder that needs to be fixed. Any psychiatrist will tell you that psychiatric medications only treat the symptoms of mood disorders and that they do not know the cause of most of them. It is hogwash that they think mood disorders are "only chemical imbalances in the brain". They know these disorders are polygenic and environmental. But for some people, a short dose of SSRI's or antipsychotics can keep them alive long enough to find out what it is that is giving them so much pain, i mean singnals.
hexxiiiz 6y ago
This may make sense for you in particular, but it a lot of people the signal provided by depression is distinct in its persistent alarm about something that isn't really in the present. Listening to the signal and stopping to take stock of it and make changes is often what makes depression so paralyzing, since it is characteristic of it that this doesnt help. Depression for most people is that "stop, stop, rest" happening indefinitely. This is not to say that what works for you doesn't work for you. But, in general, treating depression like an important signal of something really wrong in one's life that one needs to stop and address before moving forward is pretty much depression itself.
- golergka 6y ago
  > about something that isn't really in the present Or is it? Therapy, especially gestalt or existential, often makes people realise that something really is off with their outlook on life, relationships with other people or other things like this — something that they had paid no attention to and perceived as "normal", that really wasn't. And in the end, what started as their fight against depression ended up as work to fix the core reason for which that depression was only a symptom. I know this to be the case with myself and some close friends of mine. I'm not a health professional, and this is anecdotal evidence, but from talking to other people and therapists, I hear about this quite often.
  - derefr 6y ago
    For some people, these diseases (depression, anxiety, ADHD, bipolar, schizophrenia, OCD, intermittent explosive disorder, etc.) are lifelong maladies present from birth; where even if the disease only “showed up” later on, it is known from the person’s genetics/neuroanatomy/etc. that it was inevitable for this person to get them, eventually, regardless of environment or lifestyle. Such cases are no more adaptive than Cystic Fibrosis is adaptive. They’re malfunctions.
    - j4nt4b 6y ago
      I would hesitate before calling these conditions "lifelong maladies present from birth". It's much more accurate to call them predispositions that may or may not manifest. And even so, the degree of manifestation may depend on the degree of trauma, addiction, or other challenges the person happens to face in life. This variation is what makes me doubt any clean division into adaptive/maladaptive cases. Not everyone so predisposed is triggered into these mental reactions through their life experiences, and not everyone who is so diagnosed is a lost cause, and furthermore, those who can manage their conditions may take offence at being called "malfunctioning" when they did in fact "adapt".
GreenWatermelon 6y ago
Is it really better than death? to me, death means salvation, I'll no longer have to deal with troubles.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  If GP meant what I think he meant and he did manage to swim out of troubled waters.. I think yeah. And in general I remember that I was born to survive not to die. That every tuesday I get a happy moment.. so things are not fully broken. But I need to remove the noxious part of my life so more happy moments come than sad ones. Again it's not a universal solution but very often when you change context, you find yourself having it easier. You're not even trying to be happy, it just grows around.
- baron_harkonnen 6y ago
  “It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.” -- E. Cioran The trouble with "death means salvation", and believe me I know that yearning, is that you don't get to experience this salvation. Suicide is literally not the answer, because you will never get to experience the relief on the other end. This is the essence of Cioran's quote here. It would have been better to not exist, but it's too late for that now and ceasing to exist will not, in fact, afford you any sense of relief. The only relief you feel is in the fantasizing about death itself. Eventually you will die and after that point it won't matter how long or how painfully you've lived. From the perspective of death life doesn't matter at all, but you won't be alive to experience that perspective.
  - 3pt14159 6y ago
    Believe me, I know what it is to suffer. But even though I lean against suicide strongly since I've lived the whole "if you're going through hell keep going" thing, and the relief when the (years long) suffering is over is immense. However, I struggle with things like a suicide pill given to air force pilots. Would it be better to be tortured for years? To have your family knowing that your fingernails got ripped out? That you lost your genitals to electrocution? I'm not sure. Plenty of heroes committed suicide.

texasbigdata 6y ago

Very good book, “the Depths” about depression. It argues it’s partially an evolutionary response. Also “quiet” by Susan Cain is even more excellent and insightful about introverts.

podgaj 6y ago

Do you realize these two sentences say the same exact thing? You have a pain, which is a signal of a disorder, and you need to change something to fix it. "At first I viewed the depression I started fighting in my teens as a scourge, a defect, something broken to be fixed." "I have since come to see it as an important signal. When I am managing my life and mental states well, it often fades into the background. When it starts to flare up, like with some kind of physical pain, that's telling me I need to pay attention and change things up a bit."

typicalset 6y ago
I think these two sentences are different: it's analogous to treating a symptom vs treating an underlying condition.
- podgaj 6y ago
  Yeah, I agree with that distinction. This is am important semantic discussion. But he just changed the name of the thing he wants to get rid of from "pain" to "signal". The signal is still a disorder. The signal is the thing that bothers us.
  - abdullahkhalids 6y ago
    I think they is saying that if you put your hand on a hot thing, you get a signal. You can also call it pain. But the problem is not an internal problem with your body, but a consequence of your environment. So change your environment or what you are doing and the pain will disappear. Don't try to keep your environment the same and try to change within. (I don't entirely agree with them, but that's my best summary of their argument).
Solstinox 6y ago
No. One sees the depression as something to be fixed, the other sees the underlying problem causing the depression as something to be fixed.
- podgaj 6y ago
  Yeah, I agree. But the signal is still the disorder that needs to be fixed. Any psychiatrist will tell you that psychiatric medications only treat the symptoms of mood disorders and that they do not know the cause of most of them. It is hogwash that they think mood disorders are "only chemical imbalances in the brain". They know these disorders are polygenic and environmental. But for some people, a short dose of SSRI's or antipsychotics can keep them alive long enough to find out what it is that is giving them so much pain, i mean singnals.

hexxiiiz 6y ago

This may make sense for you in particular, but it a lot of people the signal provided by depression is distinct in its persistent alarm about something that isn't really in the present. Listening to the signal and stopping to take stock of it and make changes is often what makes depression so paralyzing, since it is characteristic of it that this doesnt help. Depression for most people is that "stop, stop, rest" happening indefinitely. This is not to say that what works for you doesn't work for you. But, in general, treating depression like an important signal of something really wrong in one's life that one needs to stop and address before moving forward is pretty much depression itself.

golergka 6y ago
> about something that isn't really in the present Or is it? Therapy, especially gestalt or existential, often makes people realise that something really is off with their outlook on life, relationships with other people or other things like this — something that they had paid no attention to and perceived as "normal", that really wasn't. And in the end, what started as their fight against depression ended up as work to fix the core reason for which that depression was only a symptom. I know this to be the case with myself and some close friends of mine. I'm not a health professional, and this is anecdotal evidence, but from talking to other people and therapists, I hear about this quite often.
- derefr 6y ago
  For some people, these diseases (depression, anxiety, ADHD, bipolar, schizophrenia, OCD, intermittent explosive disorder, etc.) are lifelong maladies present from birth; where even if the disease only “showed up” later on, it is known from the person’s genetics/neuroanatomy/etc. that it was inevitable for this person to get them, eventually, regardless of environment or lifestyle. Such cases are no more adaptive than Cystic Fibrosis is adaptive. They’re malfunctions.
  - j4nt4b 6y ago
    I would hesitate before calling these conditions "lifelong maladies present from birth". It's much more accurate to call them predispositions that may or may not manifest. And even so, the degree of manifestation may depend on the degree of trauma, addiction, or other challenges the person happens to face in life. This variation is what makes me doubt any clean division into adaptive/maladaptive cases. Not everyone so predisposed is triggered into these mental reactions through their life experiences, and not everyone who is so diagnosed is a lost cause, and furthermore, those who can manage their conditions may take offence at being called "malfunctioning" when they did in fact "adapt".

GreenWatermelon 6y ago

Is it really better than death? to me, death means salvation, I'll no longer have to deal with troubles.

agumonkey 6y ago
If GP meant what I think he meant and he did manage to swim out of troubled waters.. I think yeah. And in general I remember that I was born to survive not to die. That every tuesday I get a happy moment.. so things are not fully broken. But I need to remove the noxious part of my life so more happy moments come than sad ones. Again it's not a universal solution but very often when you change context, you find yourself having it easier. You're not even trying to be happy, it just grows around.
baron_harkonnen 6y ago
“It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.” -- E. Cioran The trouble with "death means salvation", and believe me I know that yearning, is that you don't get to experience this salvation. Suicide is literally not the answer, because you will never get to experience the relief on the other end. This is the essence of Cioran's quote here. It would have been better to not exist, but it's too late for that now and ceasing to exist will not, in fact, afford you any sense of relief. The only relief you feel is in the fantasizing about death itself. Eventually you will die and after that point it won't matter how long or how painfully you've lived. From the perspective of death life doesn't matter at all, but you won't be alive to experience that perspective.
- 3pt14159 6y ago
  Believe me, I know what it is to suffer. But even though I lean against suicide strongly since I've lived the whole "if you're going through hell keep going" thing, and the relief when the (years long) suffering is over is immense. However, I struggle with things like a suicide pill given to air force pilots. Would it be better to be tortured for years? To have your family knowing that your fingernails got ripped out? That you lost your genitals to electrocution? I'm not sure. Plenty of heroes committed suicide.