4 ms·

The "rules-based order" of the world is essentially a US-led world order. What is fascinating is that the US itself is dismantling it, ultimately leading to a

The "rules-based order" of the world is essentially a US-led world order. What is fascinating is that the US itself is dismantling it, ultimately leading to a world that is no longer US-led and where the US is a lot poorer.

mschuster91 6y ago
> What is fascinating is that the US itself is dismantling it, ultimately leading to a world that is no longer US-led and where the US is a lot poorer. It makes sense when one looks at who is behind Trump and his success, and that's Putin (and, until maybe two years ago, China). Wherever the US has pulled out of, Russia and China have benefitted, especially as us Europeans are still a fractured bunch: Libya, the entire Syria clusterfuck, all of Africa where Western financiers have dropped out because of corruption and got replaced by China's New Belt Road, and I highly doubt that China would have gone against Hongkong or Taiwan if the current President were someone actually competent.
- throwaway4good 6y ago
  I don't buy the idea that Trump is controlled by Putin. Actually I think it is a silly and unconstructive conspiracy theory. How it is very obvious that Russia is cheerleading and encouraging the move away from the global "rules-based order". To be convinced of that just spent a bit of time watching Russia Today or similar.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    Not passing judgment on this particular conspiracy theory, but Putin or Xi need not control -- or even have a relationship with -- Trump to get the effect they want. Trump unabashedly showed the world the kind of man he is, even before being elected. A foreign power could easily see that Trump would push an isolationist agenda that would benefit them.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      What did Trump show them though? That he's a populist? That's not useful for any foreign power unless they can reliably sway the American public. Trump didn't show any strong ideological positions, it's not like there's a straight line running through 40 years. Trump is a wild card. You might argue that having a President that might do anything and everything in office is weakening the US, and that therefore strengthens other powers, but I'm skeptical that they're fine with "oh yeah, well, there's a 30 percent chance he watches an unfavorible documentary on Russia and goes into all-out Cold War mode". I don't think Trump is too predictable beyond a) Trump wants what's good for Trump and b) Trump will do what American corporations and the generic establishment wants (aka strong military, only favorable trade deals, no international cooperations that might lead to having to change behavior the US profit from). That's essentially rolling the dice. You might win a car, you might lose your life. How many leaders of aspiring or former world powers are going to roll that dice?
      - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
        > That's not useful for any foreign power unless they can reliably sway the American public. It's useful if it pushes the US away from Europe and weakens its sphere of influence, which is exactly what happened.
        luckylion 6y ago
        Sure, if that is what they correctly predicted. If the Chinese did that, well, it kind of didn't work, because they also got a trade war and generally unfavorable development. If the Russians did it, they also got a nice proxy war going that they probably didn't want, with their local client state in the area losing ground and the US ally next door annexing part of it. Rolling the dice is great, you can win big (or bigly?), but it's a dice. Unless you've manipulated it and made sure it can only show whatever side you want, there's a good chance you'll lose.
        ntsplnkv2 6y ago
        I'm not buying the idea that Trump is just an unknown. He has talked with Putin multiple times without aides, he has many business ties with Russia. The bi-partisan senate report pretty much proves that this isn't just chance. Russia isn't in a position of power. Any amount of generated chaos is a positive - the proxy war in the middle east is irrelevant to Europe - Putin would make that trade any day of the week. Russia isn't directly supporting only Trump - it's likely they are supporting left wing candidates as well. It isn't for "policy" it's for division and sowing chaos. The US is its own worst enemy right now - and that limits it internationally.
  - yardie 6y ago
    Trump isn’t controllable in the boss to employee sense. He is controllable because he is impressionable. He thinks him and Putin are allies. If Putin suggests something he will run with it. If Putin suggests something to his followers they will run with it. Trump will see it and he will run with it.
  - bsder 6y ago
    > I don't buy the idea that Trump is controlled by Putin. Actually I think it is a silly and unconstructive conspiracy theory. Putin isn't a genius, but he IS basically a mob boss. Al Capone didn't control William Hale Thompson (Chicago Mayor), but his money sure compromised him. Similarly, Putin's money seem to have compromised most of the Republican leadership. And I do think that Putin's control over Trump is quite a bit stronger than just the control over the Republican leadership. I believe that Putin has specific kompromat on Trump. We have a bunch of rules and laws about emoluments for very good reasons.
eternalban 6y ago
It is thought provoking, and here the question to ask is: would the usual suspects in USA also be a "lot poorer" when the superpower is dethroned? If you review George H W Bush's early 90s speeches, he was cryctal clear that "UN" would be the center of "a new world order" and not USA or Washington DC. The undeclared attack of 9/11 necessitated a change in the plans. (If you think US was attempting to "Shock and Awe" Iraqis, that is fine, but we would disagree on that ..) p.s. http://canadianliberty.com/new-world-order-speeches-of-president-george-h-w-bush/ http://canadianliberty.com/new-world-order-speeches-of-presi...

mschuster91 6y ago

> What is fascinating is that the US itself is dismantling it, ultimately leading to a world that is no longer US-led and where the US is a lot poorer. It makes sense when one looks at who is behind Trump and his success, and that's Putin (and, until maybe two years ago, China). Wherever the US has pulled out of, Russia and China have benefitted, especially as us Europeans are still a fractured bunch: Libya, the entire Syria clusterfuck, all of Africa where Western financiers have dropped out because of corruption and got replaced by China's New Belt Road, and I highly doubt that China would have gone against Hongkong or Taiwan if the current President were someone actually competent.

throwaway4good 6y ago
I don't buy the idea that Trump is controlled by Putin. Actually I think it is a silly and unconstructive conspiracy theory. How it is very obvious that Russia is cheerleading and encouraging the move away from the global "rules-based order". To be convinced of that just spent a bit of time watching Russia Today or similar.
- kelnos 6y ago
  Not passing judgment on this particular conspiracy theory, but Putin or Xi need not control -- or even have a relationship with -- Trump to get the effect they want. Trump unabashedly showed the world the kind of man he is, even before being elected. A foreign power could easily see that Trump would push an isolationist agenda that would benefit them.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    What did Trump show them though? That he's a populist? That's not useful for any foreign power unless they can reliably sway the American public. Trump didn't show any strong ideological positions, it's not like there's a straight line running through 40 years. Trump is a wild card. You might argue that having a President that might do anything and everything in office is weakening the US, and that therefore strengthens other powers, but I'm skeptical that they're fine with "oh yeah, well, there's a 30 percent chance he watches an unfavorible documentary on Russia and goes into all-out Cold War mode". I don't think Trump is too predictable beyond a) Trump wants what's good for Trump and b) Trump will do what American corporations and the generic establishment wants (aka strong military, only favorable trade deals, no international cooperations that might lead to having to change behavior the US profit from). That's essentially rolling the dice. You might win a car, you might lose your life. How many leaders of aspiring or former world powers are going to roll that dice?
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      > That's not useful for any foreign power unless they can reliably sway the American public. It's useful if it pushes the US away from Europe and weakens its sphere of influence, which is exactly what happened.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        Sure, if that is what they correctly predicted. If the Chinese did that, well, it kind of didn't work, because they also got a trade war and generally unfavorable development. If the Russians did it, they also got a nice proxy war going that they probably didn't want, with their local client state in the area losing ground and the US ally next door annexing part of it. Rolling the dice is great, you can win big (or bigly?), but it's a dice. Unless you've manipulated it and made sure it can only show whatever side you want, there's a good chance you'll lose.
        ntsplnkv2 6y ago
        I'm not buying the idea that Trump is just an unknown. He has talked with Putin multiple times without aides, he has many business ties with Russia. The bi-partisan senate report pretty much proves that this isn't just chance. Russia isn't in a position of power. Any amount of generated chaos is a positive - the proxy war in the middle east is irrelevant to Europe - Putin would make that trade any day of the week. Russia isn't directly supporting only Trump - it's likely they are supporting left wing candidates as well. It isn't for "policy" it's for division and sowing chaos. The US is its own worst enemy right now - and that limits it internationally.
- yardie 6y ago
  Trump isn’t controllable in the boss to employee sense. He is controllable because he is impressionable. He thinks him and Putin are allies. If Putin suggests something he will run with it. If Putin suggests something to his followers they will run with it. Trump will see it and he will run with it.
- bsder 6y ago
  > I don't buy the idea that Trump is controlled by Putin. Actually I think it is a silly and unconstructive conspiracy theory. Putin isn't a genius, but he IS basically a mob boss. Al Capone didn't control William Hale Thompson (Chicago Mayor), but his money sure compromised him. Similarly, Putin's money seem to have compromised most of the Republican leadership. And I do think that Putin's control over Trump is quite a bit stronger than just the control over the Republican leadership. I believe that Putin has specific kompromat on Trump. We have a bunch of rules and laws about emoluments for very good reasons.

eternalban 6y ago

It is thought provoking, and here the question to ask is: would the usual suspects in USA also be a "lot poorer" when the superpower is dethroned? If you review George H W Bush's early 90s speeches, he was cryctal clear that "UN" would be the center of "a new world order" and not USA or Washington DC. The undeclared attack of 9/11 necessitated a change in the plans. (If you think US was attempting to "Shock and Awe" Iraqis, that is fine, but we would disagree on that ..) p.s. http://canadianliberty.com/new-world-order-speeches-of-president-george-h-w-bush/ http://canadianliberty.com/new-world-order-speeches-of-presi...