5 ms·

Why do we need to mouse experiments when a large number of bodybuilders have moved straight to human trails?

by throwaway4good 6y ago

mahesh_rm 6y ago
Because they are not in their natural death age range yet, and because of the huge amount of confounding variables.
- nabla9 6y ago
  It's possible to use life span as a biomarker and not to follow the whole natural life cycle (when you know know the natural rate of death in all age-groups, deviations from it give information that allows to extrapolate). Unfortunately it's near impossible for humans because we don't live in controlled environment and expected lifespan changes. Additionally bodybuilders and athletes have food, drug and lifestyle that is very different from others.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    I can understand the value of controlling for confounding variables for small-scale tests, and I can totally accept that bodybuilders may be a specific abnormal group different from the general population, but surely the one thing we don’t have to care about in this particular case is a controlled environment, because we would want it to work in general and on almost everyone?
    - victorbstan 6y ago
      They also take a lot of other supplements. So you can’t narrow it down to anything.
globular-toast 6y ago
The drugs bodybuilders and other athletes take are often illegal and they are highly secretive about it. It's a big problem when trying to do any kind of science on these drugs.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > often illegal and they are highly secretive about it. Nope. Primarily insulin is used to help digest 10,000 to 20,000 calories per day, and TRT (testosterone) from doctors. Most of the Mr. Olympias have interviews on Youtube. They usually don't give the dose so that amateurs don't emulate them, but otherwise are pretty open about it. (I was one of the strongest and biggest Gold's Gym members in the Bay Area just by sleeping 8 hours a day and going to the gym every 3 days in my 20's and 30's, so you can get results naturally if that's your #1 priority for a few years. For example, I maxed out all of the machines. Note that if you're an engineer, make sure you have a sensible goal beforehand, since nobody needs a super-heavyweight engineer.)
  - bluedevil2k 6y ago
    I don't usually come on HN to say "you're wrong", but in this case you are. Steroid use is extremely common in body builders. It's pretty much a requirement since steroids JUST WORK. If you're not doing them, and the competitors are doing them, then you have no shot of winning. Yes, they have "natural bodybuilding", but look at those guys against the pros in the open divisions or the men's physique divisions - there's no comparison. They are not on TRT. They are taking testosterone doses 4-8x higher than a 20 year old male. So, steroids, all the serious bodybuilders are using it. The next level to get big is to combine HGH and insulin together. They have a massive synergistic effect. HGH in the morning with insulin around meals and it triggers the cells in the body to pull in vast amounts of energy (insulin) with tons of growth signals from the HGH. Steroids trigger muscle growth and rapid recovery, and the 3 of these drugs together allow body builders to train longer & harder, recover quicker, and convert food to growth much easier. > "One of the biggest members" - "maxed out all the machines" Call me very skeptical. Yes, you definitely can get results naturally. If you have great genes, you can get very good results. But, you'll never be a body builder level huge without the cocktail I just outlined.
    - bluedevil2k 6y ago
      To further my point... 1 - The natural body building champion 2 - The Men's Physique division champion (no testing) 3 - The Men's Open division champion (no testing) 1 - https://gncukblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/richard-gozdecki-2.jpg https://gncukblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/richard-gozdec... 2 - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SAhkbadUk-8/hqdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SAhkbadUk-8/hqdefault.jpg 3 - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/O9B7Oden44w/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/O9B7Oden44w/maxresdefault.jpg
at_a_remove 6y ago
Where to begin? 1) The mice are genetically rather similar to one another; the bodybuilders are not. 2) The mice are under identical diets; the bodybuilders are not. 3) The mice are all on the same amount of the substance; the bodybuilders are not. 4) The mice aren't all on anything else; the bodybuilders are likely each on a highly individualized regimen of supplements, particular foods, medicines (prescribed or not). 5) The mice are near a critical age when you can see the effects of aging take place; the bodybuilders are not. 6) The mice can be sacrificed and autopsied at whim; the bodybuilders cannot. And so on and so forth.
- User23 6y ago
  Another obvious confound is that body builders engage in regular resistance exercise which is proven to promote skeletal, muscular, and neural health. Anecdotally I know a man who is in his 90s and still lifts and cycles regularly and has for the past 40 years. He is definitely suffering the effects of aging, but when, for example, he falls his bones don't break and he's able to continue on. He's dealt with other medical conditions that normally wouldn't be treated in a man his age. But because of his good health, the doctors have gone ahead and gotten good outcomes. He also hasn't drank or smoked in the past 40 years either though, so there's another confound.

Why do we need to mouse experiments when a large number of bodybuilders have moved straight to human trails?

mahesh_rm 6y ago

Because they are not in their natural death age range yet, and because of the huge amount of confounding variables.

nabla9 6y ago
It's possible to use life span as a biomarker and not to follow the whole natural life cycle (when you know know the natural rate of death in all age-groups, deviations from it give information that allows to extrapolate). Unfortunately it's near impossible for humans because we don't live in controlled environment and expected lifespan changes. Additionally bodybuilders and athletes have food, drug and lifestyle that is very different from others.
- ben_w 6y ago
  I can understand the value of controlling for confounding variables for small-scale tests, and I can totally accept that bodybuilders may be a specific abnormal group different from the general population, but surely the one thing we don’t have to care about in this particular case is a controlled environment, because we would want it to work in general and on almost everyone?
  - victorbstan 6y ago
    They also take a lot of other supplements. So you can’t narrow it down to anything.

globular-toast 6y ago

The drugs bodybuilders and other athletes take are often illegal and they are highly secretive about it. It's a big problem when trying to do any kind of science on these drugs.

redis_mlc 6y ago
> often illegal and they are highly secretive about it. Nope. Primarily insulin is used to help digest 10,000 to 20,000 calories per day, and TRT (testosterone) from doctors. Most of the Mr. Olympias have interviews on Youtube. They usually don't give the dose so that amateurs don't emulate them, but otherwise are pretty open about it. (I was one of the strongest and biggest Gold's Gym members in the Bay Area just by sleeping 8 hours a day and going to the gym every 3 days in my 20's and 30's, so you can get results naturally if that's your #1 priority for a few years. For example, I maxed out all of the machines. Note that if you're an engineer, make sure you have a sensible goal beforehand, since nobody needs a super-heavyweight engineer.)
- bluedevil2k 6y ago
  I don't usually come on HN to say "you're wrong", but in this case you are. Steroid use is extremely common in body builders. It's pretty much a requirement since steroids JUST WORK. If you're not doing them, and the competitors are doing them, then you have no shot of winning. Yes, they have "natural bodybuilding", but look at those guys against the pros in the open divisions or the men's physique divisions - there's no comparison. They are not on TRT. They are taking testosterone doses 4-8x higher than a 20 year old male. So, steroids, all the serious bodybuilders are using it. The next level to get big is to combine HGH and insulin together. They have a massive synergistic effect. HGH in the morning with insulin around meals and it triggers the cells in the body to pull in vast amounts of energy (insulin) with tons of growth signals from the HGH. Steroids trigger muscle growth and rapid recovery, and the 3 of these drugs together allow body builders to train longer & harder, recover quicker, and convert food to growth much easier. > "One of the biggest members" - "maxed out all the machines" Call me very skeptical. Yes, you definitely can get results naturally. If you have great genes, you can get very good results. But, you'll never be a body builder level huge without the cocktail I just outlined.
  - bluedevil2k 6y ago
    To further my point... 1 - The natural body building champion 2 - The Men's Physique division champion (no testing) 3 - The Men's Open division champion (no testing) 1 - https://gncukblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/richard-gozdecki-2.jpg https://gncukblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/richard-gozdec... 2 - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SAhkbadUk-8/hqdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SAhkbadUk-8/hqdefault.jpg 3 - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/O9B7Oden44w/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/O9B7Oden44w/maxresdefault.jpg

at_a_remove 6y ago

Where to begin? 1) The mice are genetically rather similar to one another; the bodybuilders are not. 2) The mice are under identical diets; the bodybuilders are not. 3) The mice are all on the same amount of the substance; the bodybuilders are not. 4) The mice aren't all on anything else; the bodybuilders are likely each on a highly individualized regimen of supplements, particular foods, medicines (prescribed or not). 5) The mice are near a critical age when you can see the effects of aging take place; the bodybuilders are not. 6) The mice can be sacrificed and autopsied at whim; the bodybuilders cannot. And so on and so forth.

User23 6y ago
Another obvious confound is that body builders engage in regular resistance exercise which is proven to promote skeletal, muscular, and neural health. Anecdotally I know a man who is in his 90s and still lifts and cycles regularly and has for the past 40 years. He is definitely suffering the effects of aging, but when, for example, he falls his bones don't break and he's able to continue on. He's dealt with other medical conditions that normally wouldn't be treated in a man his age. But because of his good health, the doctors have gone ahead and gotten good outcomes. He also hasn't drank or smoked in the past 40 years either though, so there's another confound.