6 ms·

You have it the wrong way round. International cooperation is based on US power, in particular US nukes, US air and naval superiority, US protection of Europe a

by tomp 6y ago

You have it the wrong way round. International cooperation is based on US power, in particular US nukes, US air and naval superiority, US protection of Europe and US financing of European defence (NATO), US protection of international trade routes ...

mola 6y ago
Let's say there's a bully, and he just takes and steal stuff. And then there's a big guy seeing that and telling the bully to fuck off and let the kids play without fear. Both are power moves. Do you think they're the same thing though? Yes, power is good way to bootstrap cooperation based on trust. This is a much more effective form of cooperation as you waste less energy on paranoia and watching over your back. You can also base cooperation on submission but then you have to constantly be at an all out war to protect your regime. Much less efficient or reasonable.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  As JFK alluded to in his Inaugural Speech, 騎虎難下. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/kennedy.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/kennedy.asp > "We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom--and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside." https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mad.jpg https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mad.jpg Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4dJaYMebI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4dJaYMebI
boudin 6y ago
No a lot of the current mess is due to US imperialism and bullying, the same way it had been messed up by British, French and Spanish imperialism before. And this based on USD being at the core of finance. US protection is not needed other than in places destroyed by the US in the first place. Now more than ever, I'm quite certain that almost all countries in the world would jump on any opportunity to get rid of this currency influence.
fit2rule 6y ago
The point is, the winds are changing. Europeans are sick and tired of having to deal with America's war crimes and massive crimes against humanity, and there is definitely an effort to extricate itself from the mess that NATO membership regularly puts European states in.
- tomp 6y ago
  Sure, I'd like that to happen as well. But it won't happen without (1) synchronisation of EU military forces, and (2) massive investment into the military (more than China / US if we want to catch up to rival them).
  - arethuza 6y ago
    Why would the EU want to catch up or rival them in military spending?
    - tomp 6y ago
      To provide their own defense, ensure their energy sufficiency (in contrast to the US, EU doesn't really have its own energy apart for a bit of North Sea oil, most of it is imported from Russia and the Middle East, two places known for being peaceful and cooperative), protect their trade routes/trading partners, and enforce international law (e.g. anti-nuclear weapons regulations and sanctions)
      - arethuza 6y ago
        EU countries already have a large military in absolute terms - it's just a lot smaller than the US or China. My question is why the EU would want to challenge the US or China - neither who are realistic direct threats. Similar to how China appears to have decided that it doesn't need the huge numbers of nuclear weapons that the US and Russia have.
        tomp 6y ago
        In order to have free trade with Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, etc. US is using their military force to contain China. In order to do so, their military forces have to be superior to China's. If EU wants to "go alone" and not rely on US power, they would need to do that themselves (or be content to not trade with a lot of the world, where they cannot project military power). Same with Middle East. Clearly there are competitors for local energy resources - e.g. Russia, increasingly China as well - as well as tensions in the region (e.g. Iran vs Saudi Arabia). EU depends on that energy, so protecting it is a matter of "national security". Currently, EU is relying on the US to maintain that.
numpad0 6y ago
I agree with this comment. The “long-standing peace” on this planet that began 1945 was just a moratorium of world wars for American fear of nuclear winter situation, and it’s ending. The world will resume, and so will the progress, and it’ll happen here on Earth unless we choose to do it elsewhere, not because it’s easy but because it’s the only place there is.

by tomp 6y ago

mola 6y ago

Let's say there's a bully, and he just takes and steal stuff. And then there's a big guy seeing that and telling the bully to fuck off and let the kids play without fear. Both are power moves. Do you think they're the same thing though? Yes, power is good way to bootstrap cooperation based on trust. This is a much more effective form of cooperation as you waste less energy on paranoia and watching over your back. You can also base cooperation on submission but then you have to constantly be at an all out war to protect your regime. Much less efficient or reasonable.

082349872349872 6y ago
As JFK alluded to in his Inaugural Speech, 騎虎難下. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/kennedy.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/kennedy.asp > "We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom--and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside." https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mad.jpg https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mad.jpg Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4dJaYMebI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4dJaYMebI

boudin 6y ago

No a lot of the current mess is due to US imperialism and bullying, the same way it had been messed up by British, French and Spanish imperialism before. And this based on USD being at the core of finance. US protection is not needed other than in places destroyed by the US in the first place. Now more than ever, I'm quite certain that almost all countries in the world would jump on any opportunity to get rid of this currency influence.

fit2rule 6y ago

The point is, the winds are changing. Europeans are sick and tired of having to deal with America's war crimes and massive crimes against humanity, and there is definitely an effort to extricate itself from the mess that NATO membership regularly puts European states in.

tomp 6y ago
Sure, I'd like that to happen as well. But it won't happen without (1) synchronisation of EU military forces, and (2) massive investment into the military (more than China / US if we want to catch up to rival them).
- arethuza 6y ago
  Why would the EU want to catch up or rival them in military spending?
  - tomp 6y ago
    To provide their own defense, ensure their energy sufficiency (in contrast to the US, EU doesn't really have its own energy apart for a bit of North Sea oil, most of it is imported from Russia and the Middle East, two places known for being peaceful and cooperative), protect their trade routes/trading partners, and enforce international law (e.g. anti-nuclear weapons regulations and sanctions)
    - arethuza 6y ago
      EU countries already have a large military in absolute terms - it's just a lot smaller than the US or China. My question is why the EU would want to challenge the US or China - neither who are realistic direct threats. Similar to how China appears to have decided that it doesn't need the huge numbers of nuclear weapons that the US and Russia have.
      - tomp 6y ago
        In order to have free trade with Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, etc. US is using their military force to contain China. In order to do so, their military forces have to be superior to China's. If EU wants to "go alone" and not rely on US power, they would need to do that themselves (or be content to not trade with a lot of the world, where they cannot project military power). Same with Middle East. Clearly there are competitors for local energy resources - e.g. Russia, increasingly China as well - as well as tensions in the region (e.g. Iran vs Saudi Arabia). EU depends on that energy, so protecting it is a matter of "national security". Currently, EU is relying on the US to maintain that.

numpad0 6y ago

I agree with this comment. The “long-standing peace” on this planet that began 1945 was just a moratorium of world wars for American fear of nuclear winter situation, and it’s ending. The world will resume, and so will the progress, and it’ll happen here on Earth unless we choose to do it elsewhere, not because it’s easy but because it’s the only place there is.