4 ms·

I emailed RMS on 2019-02-19, with a subject line, "What's bad about: Zoom.us". Somehow Zoom was missing from his pages as an example of unacceptable software/s

by cnst 6y ago

I emailed RMS on 2019-02-19, with a subject line, "What's bad about: Zoom.us". Somehow Zoom was missing from his pages as an example of unacceptable software/service (I see it's finally there, but very barebones compared to the rest of the examples -- http://stallman.org/zoom.html http://stallman.org/zoom.html). Let me quote his select quote from my email, and the start of his reply: --- > I really enjoy your What's-bad-about series. Any chance you can do one for Zoom.us? I never heard of that. What does it do? I would guess that since I never head about it then it isn't important enough to mention. --- Yes, 2019. With Zoom having a billboard at SJC and plenty of other airports, not to mention every other phone interview for a software engineering role being done over Zoom.

Waterluvian 6y ago
FWIW I never used zoom until this year and even then only for town halls. I didn’t know it was a thing until late last year. And I’m very much a youthful person in the tech industry.
- cnst 6y ago
  Zoom itself is relatively new. I've only used it once or twice, but if you've been interviewing in 2018/2019, it's basically been the platform of choice for every other interview. I almost always decline to use Zoom; one time I've tried it on my phone, my phone almost burned from how much power the app was consuming; never again. Here's what I wrote to Stallman in 2019-02-19 about it: > I really enjoy your What's-bad-about series. Any chance you can do one for Zoom.us? And, possibly, Google Meet / Hangouts as well? > The context: I'm interviewing for a number of UNIX/Go/C SRE/SWE positions, and it is surprisingly common that the company requires that I join a meeting, to check my coding proficiency or whatnot, through Zoom. For me, it's a security issue, as you have to install a third-party closed-source binary in order to join. I instead prefer to join via ssh/tmux (somehow noone ever offers this), or Collabedit (which at least always works in my OSS browser without having to install any third-party plugins).
  - esrh 6y ago
    > OSS browser Prob triggered him right there
    - cnst 6y ago
      You're "almost" right. I think he was way more triggered by "closed-source", however. --- > I instead prefer to join via ssh/tmux (somehow noone ever offers > this), or Collabedit (which at least always works in my OSS > browser without having to install any third-party plugins). Have you tried asking to do it this way instead? > For me, it's a security issue, as you have to install a > third-party closed-source binary in order to join. Could we please avoid the term "closed source"? I disagree deeply with the idea of "open source", so I never use that term or its antonym. What I advocate is "free software", a totally different idea. --- I'm from the OSS camp -- BSD developer -- using a BSD email address to email RMS, so, I've used "OSS" term very intentionally. Obviously, I have tried and succeeded in asking the companies to use the phone and Collabedit. To my surprise, noone ever came prepared with ssh/tmux; I don't think anyone even realises that it's a possibility; when I once offered to provide mosh/tmux myself, I've wasted a bit too much time around the whole setup that I've actually entirely failed the interview itself that time. As for RMS -- I'm not sure if I was the one to tell him about Zoom in 2019-02, but I was left rather disappointed from that conversation -- he didn't have a way to see who I am (he'd have to have someone else vouch for me in person for that?!), he ignored my wake-up call about Zoom taking over the young minds (he requested references for Zoom being an issue -- who else other than RMS cares about these issues so much as to write whole pages about it?!), he didn't offer any concrete solution to the situation that wasn't already obvious, and he schooled me about a term that -- clearly as a BSD developer -- I don't particularly care about. My email chain shows that I've never bothered to reply back -- I had nothing else to say about the matter compared to what's already been said in my initial email. My biggest surprise was that he's just never heard of Zoom, in a year where Zoom IPO'ed (in 2019), and $ZM was already worth 21 billion in 2020-01 even before the whole COVID19 took over later in 2020-03.
serf 6y ago
>Yes, 2019. With Zoom having a billboard at SJC and plenty of other airports, not to mention every other phone interview for a software engineering role being done over Zoom. Would you rather he bluffed and said "Oh yeah, Zoom.." and rattled off some reasons, rather than expressing a curiosity and willingness to listen to someone about it? No one listens to RMS because they think he's the most hip person around -- they listen to him because occasionally he spouts out some wisdom that, on average, is worth listening to.
- dwohnitmok 6y ago
  Almost certainly parent isn't talking about > I never heard of that. What does it do? I'm pretty sure they're talking about the dismissal on the following line (which on the surface is the opposite of curiosity, although you can make the argument that paired with his question on the previous line it's more a statement about his confidence in his own familiarity with the field of software): > I would guess that since I never head about it then it isn't important enough to mention.
  - young_unixer 6y ago
    Let's agree that he has to draw the line at some point, otherwise the list of proprietary programs would be huge.
    - pwdisswordfish4 6y ago
      Stop intentionally ignoring the thrust of the argument. Let's agree that Stallman does have to draw a line. Let's also acknowledge that Zoom is included on this side of the line.
- cnst 6y ago
  I was honestly puzzled he's never heard of it; because I know he flies a lot, and surely he must have seen at least one of their billboards, unless he was specifically avoiding all the billboards (I guess he might). Also, that's not curiosity, either. He completely ignored the rest of the email where I've already explained the context for my concern (see my sibling reply in this thread), and dismissed the whole thing as not being that important; and without bothering to investigate on his own, either. If you look at what he and his assistants write about it, they still don't get what people use Zoom for. I'd never join any Zoom meeting period, unless they support joining without installing any third-party software, but the offers I get are for the interviews, not for participating in a vague "activity". It's usually not a big deal to decline; and do a phone screen instead; with one of the CoderPad services that let you write the code, and share the text of the code, through the browser.

by cnst 6y ago

Waterluvian 6y ago

FWIW I never used zoom until this year and even then only for town halls. I didn’t know it was a thing until late last year. And I’m very much a youthful person in the tech industry.

cnst 6y ago
Zoom itself is relatively new. I've only used it once or twice, but if you've been interviewing in 2018/2019, it's basically been the platform of choice for every other interview. I almost always decline to use Zoom; one time I've tried it on my phone, my phone almost burned from how much power the app was consuming; never again. Here's what I wrote to Stallman in 2019-02-19 about it: > I really enjoy your What's-bad-about series. Any chance you can do one for Zoom.us? And, possibly, Google Meet / Hangouts as well? > The context: I'm interviewing for a number of UNIX/Go/C SRE/SWE positions, and it is surprisingly common that the company requires that I join a meeting, to check my coding proficiency or whatnot, through Zoom. For me, it's a security issue, as you have to install a third-party closed-source binary in order to join. I instead prefer to join via ssh/tmux (somehow noone ever offers this), or Collabedit (which at least always works in my OSS browser without having to install any third-party plugins).
- esrh 6y ago
  > OSS browser Prob triggered him right there
  - cnst 6y ago
    You're "almost" right. I think he was way more triggered by "closed-source", however. --- > I instead prefer to join via ssh/tmux (somehow noone ever offers > this), or Collabedit (which at least always works in my OSS > browser without having to install any third-party plugins). Have you tried asking to do it this way instead? > For me, it's a security issue, as you have to install a > third-party closed-source binary in order to join. Could we please avoid the term "closed source"? I disagree deeply with the idea of "open source", so I never use that term or its antonym. What I advocate is "free software", a totally different idea. --- I'm from the OSS camp -- BSD developer -- using a BSD email address to email RMS, so, I've used "OSS" term very intentionally. Obviously, I have tried and succeeded in asking the companies to use the phone and Collabedit. To my surprise, noone ever came prepared with ssh/tmux; I don't think anyone even realises that it's a possibility; when I once offered to provide mosh/tmux myself, I've wasted a bit too much time around the whole setup that I've actually entirely failed the interview itself that time. As for RMS -- I'm not sure if I was the one to tell him about Zoom in 2019-02, but I was left rather disappointed from that conversation -- he didn't have a way to see who I am (he'd have to have someone else vouch for me in person for that?!), he ignored my wake-up call about Zoom taking over the young minds (he requested references for Zoom being an issue -- who else other than RMS cares about these issues so much as to write whole pages about it?!), he didn't offer any concrete solution to the situation that wasn't already obvious, and he schooled me about a term that -- clearly as a BSD developer -- I don't particularly care about. My email chain shows that I've never bothered to reply back -- I had nothing else to say about the matter compared to what's already been said in my initial email. My biggest surprise was that he's just never heard of Zoom, in a year where Zoom IPO'ed (in 2019), and $ZM was already worth 21 billion in 2020-01 even before the whole COVID19 took over later in 2020-03.

serf 6y ago

>Yes, 2019. With Zoom having a billboard at SJC and plenty of other airports, not to mention every other phone interview for a software engineering role being done over Zoom. Would you rather he bluffed and said "Oh yeah, Zoom.." and rattled off some reasons, rather than expressing a curiosity and willingness to listen to someone about it? No one listens to RMS because they think he's the most hip person around -- they listen to him because occasionally he spouts out some wisdom that, on average, is worth listening to.

dwohnitmok 6y ago
Almost certainly parent isn't talking about > I never heard of that. What does it do? I'm pretty sure they're talking about the dismissal on the following line (which on the surface is the opposite of curiosity, although you can make the argument that paired with his question on the previous line it's more a statement about his confidence in his own familiarity with the field of software): > I would guess that since I never head about it then it isn't important enough to mention.
- young_unixer 6y ago
  Let's agree that he has to draw the line at some point, otherwise the list of proprietary programs would be huge.
  - pwdisswordfish4 6y ago
    Stop intentionally ignoring the thrust of the argument. Let's agree that Stallman does have to draw a line. Let's also acknowledge that Zoom is included on this side of the line.
cnst 6y ago
I was honestly puzzled he's never heard of it; because I know he flies a lot, and surely he must have seen at least one of their billboards, unless he was specifically avoiding all the billboards (I guess he might). Also, that's not curiosity, either. He completely ignored the rest of the email where I've already explained the context for my concern (see my sibling reply in this thread), and dismissed the whole thing as not being that important; and without bothering to investigate on his own, either. If you look at what he and his assistants write about it, they still don't get what people use Zoom for. I'd never join any Zoom meeting period, unless they support joining without installing any third-party software, but the offers I get are for the interviews, not for participating in a vague "activity". It's usually not a big deal to decline; and do a phone screen instead; with one of the CoderPad services that let you write the code, and share the text of the code, through the browser.