5 ms·

Thing is this doesn’t merely exist as these cards. It is extremely easy to get out of police incidents with social skills and high-quality ability to manipulate

Thing is this doesn’t merely exist as these cards. It is extremely easy to get out of police incidents with social skills and high-quality ability to manipulate people. Because people are fallible. So there will always be differential applications of justice because justice is a game, just like every other social system. And automated policing can be played too, just in slightly different ways. So when people are shocked by this or talk about how this must be fixed in one way or another that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how complex reality works and how systems are implemented. And wishful thinking. Instead it is much more interesting to understand how things work and to embrace them. And if someone refuses to accept reality, it will be to their detriment.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
> Instead it is much more interesting to understand how things work and to embrace them. And if someone refuses to accept reality, it will be to their detriment. Are you suggesting we embrace police giving certain members of society more rights or ability to break the rules more than others?
bena 6y ago
If. You forgot the "if". It is extremely easy to get out of police incidents with social skills and high-quality ability to manipulate people if you happen to be a white male. So while justice may be a game to you, to a significant portion of the American public, it's a game they've already lost. Ask a black family and a white family what "the talk" means. You will get two answers. For white families, "the talk" is about sex. For black families, "the talk" is about how you might just killed because your skin is a little too dark to be walking in certain areas. The talk is about how to keep your hands visible at all times when you have any encounter with police. The talk is about how you will be treated as less than other people, you cannot let that ever make you angry, never let it cause your voice to raise, to always be conciliatory. Because you might get killed. So I'm glad you find it interesting. It still needs to be fixed.
- nervousvarun 6y ago
  Wow anecdotal is anecdotal but I'm white and definitely got that "Talk" from my dad when I was 15 and a permit driver (US). He got very serious and said "son: 1) Never take make any sudden movements when a cop is approaching your car 2) Don't reach for your wallet until he asks you to. 3) Always say "Yes sir" or "Yes Mam" 4) Keep your hands in your lap or on the wheel where he can see them." I distinctly remember talking with friends and they got the same talk. We were all white, suburban kids in the southern US. I still basically do all 4 of those things anytime I'm pulled over (don't speed and haven't pulled over in prob 20 years but I know I would still act that way). Police are definitely out of hand in this country but now genuinely curious how many people get this parental "talk" by race.
  - modoc 6y ago
    Anecdotal as well, by myself, and all my peers (white, rural, Northeast) got the exact same talk. Hands on steering wheel, no sudden movements, announce “I’m going to reach into my pocket/glovebox/etc..” before moving your hands at all, be polite, be respectful, you can always fight in court later.
  - lifeformed 6y ago
    Well, you probably don't get the other part of the talk though: "The talk is about how you will be treated as less than other people, you cannot let that ever make you angry, never let it cause your voice to raise, to always be conciliatory. Because you might get killed."
    - exolymph 6y ago
      The cops shoot white people too, you know. A heartbreaking example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver#Shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver#Shoo...
      - gowld 6y ago
        That was a horrific crime committed by a psychopath. That's nothing compared to the systemic comprehensive demonization of black men and boys by police, prosecutors, judges, and civilians.
JadeNB 6y ago
> It is extremely easy to get out of police incidents with social skills and high-quality ability to manipulate people. In the US at least, I think that this is only true for white people, or at least for people who appear to be high-status. I don't see any way a homeless person could avoid being moved out of a park or, more dramatically, George Floyd could have avoided being murdered, by social skills and manipulative ability.
- nervousvarun 6y ago
  If you're at the point of resisting arrest, no amount of "social skills and high quality ability to manipulate people" is going to save you from some degree of violence. I would argue black or white or asian or hispanic or whatever. We desperately need improved non-lethal deterrents in this country (among other things like training etc.) Maybe if you're trying to get out of a speeding ticket or something then that can help you but in my experience most cops have heard it all before. Bottom line if you're resisting arrest...in the US they're going to restrain you...often very violently. Obviously the excessive force part is another topic altogether. Once someone is restrained no one should ever die (what happened to George Floyd after he was restrained is obviously horrific).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
anm89 6y ago
Sure people are fallible. Our system makes it particularly easy and rewarding to be fallible when you are a cop. Let's fix that. I'm all for being realistic. So let's alter the incentive structure in a way that realistically improves this. This is the exact kind of issua our congress is designed to be there to legislate on
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  A problem with the current culture and incentives is it attracts sadists to police work. Those guys then terrorize and abuse anyone who isn't in a position to push back. Change the rules of the game to come down on cops like to with a ton of bricks and they'll leave. Which is what you want.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

> Instead it is much more interesting to understand how things work and to embrace them. And if someone refuses to accept reality, it will be to their detriment. Are you suggesting we embrace police giving certain members of society more rights or ability to break the rules more than others?

bena 6y ago

If. You forgot the "if". It is extremely easy to get out of police incidents with social skills and high-quality ability to manipulate people if you happen to be a white male. So while justice may be a game to you, to a significant portion of the American public, it's a game they've already lost. Ask a black family and a white family what "the talk" means. You will get two answers. For white families, "the talk" is about sex. For black families, "the talk" is about how you might just killed because your skin is a little too dark to be walking in certain areas. The talk is about how to keep your hands visible at all times when you have any encounter with police. The talk is about how you will be treated as less than other people, you cannot let that ever make you angry, never let it cause your voice to raise, to always be conciliatory. Because you might get killed. So I'm glad you find it interesting. It still needs to be fixed.

nervousvarun 6y ago
Wow anecdotal is anecdotal but I'm white and definitely got that "Talk" from my dad when I was 15 and a permit driver (US). He got very serious and said "son: 1) Never take make any sudden movements when a cop is approaching your car 2) Don't reach for your wallet until he asks you to. 3) Always say "Yes sir" or "Yes Mam" 4) Keep your hands in your lap or on the wheel where he can see them." I distinctly remember talking with friends and they got the same talk. We were all white, suburban kids in the southern US. I still basically do all 4 of those things anytime I'm pulled over (don't speed and haven't pulled over in prob 20 years but I know I would still act that way). Police are definitely out of hand in this country but now genuinely curious how many people get this parental "talk" by race.
- modoc 6y ago
  Anecdotal as well, by myself, and all my peers (white, rural, Northeast) got the exact same talk. Hands on steering wheel, no sudden movements, announce “I’m going to reach into my pocket/glovebox/etc..” before moving your hands at all, be polite, be respectful, you can always fight in court later.
- lifeformed 6y ago
  Well, you probably don't get the other part of the talk though: "The talk is about how you will be treated as less than other people, you cannot let that ever make you angry, never let it cause your voice to raise, to always be conciliatory. Because you might get killed."
  - exolymph 6y ago
    The cops shoot white people too, you know. A heartbreaking example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver#Shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver#Shoo...
    - gowld 6y ago
      That was a horrific crime committed by a psychopath. That's nothing compared to the systemic comprehensive demonization of black men and boys by police, prosecutors, judges, and civilians.

JadeNB 6y ago

> It is extremely easy to get out of police incidents with social skills and high-quality ability to manipulate people. In the US at least, I think that this is only true for white people, or at least for people who appear to be high-status. I don't see any way a homeless person could avoid being moved out of a park or, more dramatically, George Floyd could have avoided being murdered, by social skills and manipulative ability.

nervousvarun 6y ago
If you're at the point of resisting arrest, no amount of "social skills and high quality ability to manipulate people" is going to save you from some degree of violence. I would argue black or white or asian or hispanic or whatever. We desperately need improved non-lethal deterrents in this country (among other things like training etc.) Maybe if you're trying to get out of a speeding ticket or something then that can help you but in my experience most cops have heard it all before. Bottom line if you're resisting arrest...in the US they're going to restrain you...often very violently. Obviously the excessive force part is another topic altogether. Once someone is restrained no one should ever die (what happened to George Floyd after he was restrained is obviously horrific).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

anm89 6y ago

Sure people are fallible. Our system makes it particularly easy and rewarding to be fallible when you are a cop. Let's fix that. I'm all for being realistic. So let's alter the incentive structure in a way that realistically improves this. This is the exact kind of issua our congress is designed to be there to legislate on

Gibbon1 6y ago
A problem with the current culture and incentives is it attracts sadists to police work. Those guys then terrorize and abuse anyone who isn't in a position to push back. Change the rules of the game to come down on cops like to with a ton of bricks and they'll leave. Which is what you want.