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As far as I'm concerned, the Germans are about as trustworthy as Russia. They are currently closing the investigation around the Breitscheidplatz[1] terror atta

As far as I'm concerned, the Germans are about as trustworthy as Russia. They are currently closing the investigation around the Breitscheidplatz[1] terror attack, which has uncovered massive tampering with evidence and more open questions than answers. And let's not forget their history of false flag attacks.[2] Most of you will likely disagree, based on their current public image vs. Russia's, but ask yourselves what the known facts are. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celle_Hole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celle_Hole

fuj 6y ago
Whataboutism ftw Man, I thought you guys got better training nowadays to not be so obvious. Or maybe you're just a sad troll/apologist. Hard to tell the difference nowadays
chundicus 6y ago
A NATO member is as trustworthy as a country actively trying to destabilize democracy around the world? One who has brazenly done this sort of attack before and has a very obvious recent history of silencing dissidents? I'm all for some healthy skepticism, but this is ridiculous.
- lazyjones 6y ago
  A NATO member currently run by someone who grew up in a Stalinist dictatorship, with many members of the party that ruled said dictatorship currently in office around the country. > One who has brazenly done this sort of attack before and has a very obvious recent history of silencing dissidents? It is just "obvious" if you are a firm believer in accusations made by the "West".
  - chundicus 6y ago
    Okay I'm sure there is always some post-Soviet era bias being applied, but does that change anything substantially? Did the "West" also lie about this Novichok attack on UK soil? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_... Your baseless tinfoil skepticism is extremely useful to fascists like Putin who thrive off of spreading disinformation and uncertainty. Do Western countries lie to benefit themselves geopolitically? Of course they do, but let's apply Occam's Razor here and not go looking for a global conspiracy when the answer and motivations are so blatant.
    - lazyjones 6y ago
      > baseless tinfoil skepticism You can throw around these funny derogatory phrases all day, they lend no credibility to your fantasies.
      - BrianOnHN 6y ago
        Since you must be unaware, here's the definition of Occam's Razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor Likewise, here's the definition of fantasy https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fantasy https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fantasy I'll let you conclude which applies to you.
osipov 6y ago
It is remarkable that Germans for the most part are unwilling to look for signs of corruption in their government. I recall the conversations that I've had with regular German working stiffs around 2012-2014, chatting about the new Berlin Airport and how that showed symptoms of government corruption. The good folks of Germany started admitting to the possibility of corruption only when the media in Germany began to investigate the situation and uncover problems.
- lazyjones 6y ago
  Germany is as corrupt as European countries get. Look at their slow reaction to the cum ex scandal (they delayed closing the loophole for years, causing tens of billions in damage to the tax payers), or the recently uncovered massive investing in Wirecard by BaFin employees who were supposed to make sure Wirecard isn't a fraud. https://www.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/bafin-mitarbeiter-handelten-2020-verstaerkt-mit-wirecard-aktien-16904151.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/bafin-mitarbeiter-hande...
- odiroot 6y ago
  Brandenburg airport, Wirecard, gas deals with Russia, diesel emissions scandal and probably much more of these high-profile cases I cannot even recall now. Indeed, there have to be systemic issues.
  - m12k 6y ago
    Da, comrade - it is very important that we discuss all these German issues in a comment section about a news article about the poisoning of a critic of the Russian regime.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > Da, comrade - it is very important that we discuss all these German issues in a comment section about a news article about the poisoning of a critic of the Russian regime. Very important, yes. Also, have you heard about the poor treatment of Blacks in the Amerika? I recently found this interesting article on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
criley2 6y ago
The known facts are that the most prominent critic and opposition to the Russian dictator was poisoned in a situation that is highly similar to previous incidents that are confirmed Russian. Considering Putin has had journalists and opposition leaders killed before, and the Russian government tried to prevent the opposition from leaving the country or seeing outside doctors, one has to choose an answer which makes the least assumptions: * Would the Russian dictator once again attempt to murder his most prominent critic? * Or would the German government... falsify the poisoning, even though he was hospitalized... as a false flag... but domestic inside of Russia... during a period where the West is collapsing and USA is run by someone who is likely under Russian control meaning triggering Russia into conflict would be to do so during a period when you are least likely to be backed up by the only other nuclear power with a capable enough triad to M.A.D./stalemate it out? You can make the assumptions you want, but man your route seems to make a lot more of them.
- lazyjones 6y ago
  > * confirmed Russian.* By biased investigators who already claimed so before any investigation was started. By the same elusive club that wanted Russia blamed for MH17 all along, where doubts are still increasing years later. > USA is run by someone who is likely under Russian control You're a crazy conspiracy theorist.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
conception 6y ago
“40 years ago there was a false flag attack so obviously they are untrustworthy today!”
m12k 6y ago
This is typical whataboutism of the kind that Russian trolls typically use to counter any criticism - see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes Frankly, I think HN is in need of a purge of astroturfing accounts from the IRA.
odiroot 6y ago
> As far as I'm concerned, the Germans are about as trustworthy as Russia. They are currently closing the investigation around the Breitscheidplatz[1] terror attack That Islamist attack was very inconvenient for many powers that be, in Germany. Including the media. It has been quickly swept under a rug. Living in Berlin you could barely notice, it ever happened at all. There was even some strong opposition to putting a monument/memorial to the victims.

fuj 6y ago

Whataboutism ftw Man, I thought you guys got better training nowadays to not be so obvious. Or maybe you're just a sad troll/apologist. Hard to tell the difference nowadays

chundicus 6y ago

A NATO member is as trustworthy as a country actively trying to destabilize democracy around the world? One who has brazenly done this sort of attack before and has a very obvious recent history of silencing dissidents? I'm all for some healthy skepticism, but this is ridiculous.

lazyjones 6y ago
A NATO member currently run by someone who grew up in a Stalinist dictatorship, with many members of the party that ruled said dictatorship currently in office around the country. > One who has brazenly done this sort of attack before and has a very obvious recent history of silencing dissidents? It is just "obvious" if you are a firm believer in accusations made by the "West".
- chundicus 6y ago
  Okay I'm sure there is always some post-Soviet era bias being applied, but does that change anything substantially? Did the "West" also lie about this Novichok attack on UK soil? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_... Your baseless tinfoil skepticism is extremely useful to fascists like Putin who thrive off of spreading disinformation and uncertainty. Do Western countries lie to benefit themselves geopolitically? Of course they do, but let's apply Occam's Razor here and not go looking for a global conspiracy when the answer and motivations are so blatant.
  - lazyjones 6y ago
    > baseless tinfoil skepticism You can throw around these funny derogatory phrases all day, they lend no credibility to your fantasies.
    - BrianOnHN 6y ago
      Since you must be unaware, here's the definition of Occam's Razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor Likewise, here's the definition of fantasy https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fantasy https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fantasy I'll let you conclude which applies to you.

osipov 6y ago

It is remarkable that Germans for the most part are unwilling to look for signs of corruption in their government. I recall the conversations that I've had with regular German working stiffs around 2012-2014, chatting about the new Berlin Airport and how that showed symptoms of government corruption. The good folks of Germany started admitting to the possibility of corruption only when the media in Germany began to investigate the situation and uncover problems.

lazyjones 6y ago
Germany is as corrupt as European countries get. Look at their slow reaction to the cum ex scandal (they delayed closing the loophole for years, causing tens of billions in damage to the tax payers), or the recently uncovered massive investing in Wirecard by BaFin employees who were supposed to make sure Wirecard isn't a fraud. https://www.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/bafin-mitarbeiter-handelten-2020-verstaerkt-mit-wirecard-aktien-16904151.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/bafin-mitarbeiter-hande...
odiroot 6y ago
Brandenburg airport, Wirecard, gas deals with Russia, diesel emissions scandal and probably much more of these high-profile cases I cannot even recall now. Indeed, there have to be systemic issues.
- m12k 6y ago
  Da, comrade - it is very important that we discuss all these German issues in a comment section about a news article about the poisoning of a critic of the Russian regime.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > Da, comrade - it is very important that we discuss all these German issues in a comment section about a news article about the poisoning of a critic of the Russian regime. Very important, yes. Also, have you heard about the poor treatment of Blacks in the Amerika? I recently found this interesting article on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

criley2 6y ago

The known facts are that the most prominent critic and opposition to the Russian dictator was poisoned in a situation that is highly similar to previous incidents that are confirmed Russian. Considering Putin has had journalists and opposition leaders killed before, and the Russian government tried to prevent the opposition from leaving the country or seeing outside doctors, one has to choose an answer which makes the least assumptions: * Would the Russian dictator once again attempt to murder his most prominent critic? * Or would the German government... falsify the poisoning, even though he was hospitalized... as a false flag... but domestic inside of Russia... during a period where the West is collapsing and USA is run by someone who is likely under Russian control meaning triggering Russia into conflict would be to do so during a period when you are least likely to be backed up by the only other nuclear power with a capable enough triad to M.A.D./stalemate it out? You can make the assumptions you want, but man your route seems to make a lot more of them.

lazyjones 6y ago
> * confirmed Russian.* By biased investigators who already claimed so before any investigation was started. By the same elusive club that wanted Russia blamed for MH17 all along, where doubts are still increasing years later. > USA is run by someone who is likely under Russian control You're a crazy conspiracy theorist.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

conception 6y ago

“40 years ago there was a false flag attack so obviously they are untrustworthy today!”

m12k 6y ago

This is typical whataboutism of the kind that Russian trolls typically use to counter any criticism - see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes Frankly, I think HN is in need of a purge of astroturfing accounts from the IRA.

odiroot 6y ago

> As far as I'm concerned, the Germans are about as trustworthy as Russia. They are currently closing the investigation around the Breitscheidplatz[1] terror attack That Islamist attack was very inconvenient for many powers that be, in Germany. Including the media. It has been quickly swept under a rug. Living in Berlin you could barely notice, it ever happened at all. There was even some strong opposition to putting a monument/memorial to the victims.