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That's an interesting perspective and a valuable way of looking at things. I'll have to consider that deeper. I'm not sure I would call it "creativity," though

That's an interesting perspective and a valuable way of looking at things. I'll have to consider that deeper. I'm not sure I would call it "creativity," though. I'll have to think about that, too.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
I certainly wouldn't call it creativity. Making wheels and dealing with grief are craftsmanship. There's nothing wrong with craftsmanship, but genuine originality is rarer. This shouldn't be controversial, because it's the difference between making good wheels and inventing the idea of the wheel in the first place.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  Craftsmanship gets a bad rap in the arts, and is widely considered to be somehow "lesser" than "True Art". The work of craftsmen is often denigrated as being unoriginal and indistinguishable, but quite often a craftsman's work bears the distinctive stamp of its creator, and when you look closely you can tell one craftsman's work from another. Craftspeople also do innovate in technique and coming up with new motifs. The line between craft and art is blurry, and there are good arguments to be made for craft to be considered art. I am reminded also of the snobbish attitude some people have towards genre fiction and genre films. Work made in a genre is often seen as somehow lesser or not worthy compared to "serious" film and fiction. However, again and again genre films and fiction come out which are widely considered to be masterpieces. I'm thinking of, say, Kubrick's work in science fiction and horror (2001 and The Shining), Philip K Dick's science fiction, and Lovecraft's horror. Many of their works are now considered masterpieces despite working in what were once considered to be backwater genres. What is considered to be art has also radically changed over the millennia. Many things now considered to be high art (like, say, Duchamp's Fountain[1]) are considered masterpieces of art that broke new ground, but at the same time it could be argued that it's not art at all, and in fact any work of a craftsperson has more of a claim to the term "art" than something like Duchamp's Fountain, which wasn't even made by Duchamp, and is a mere industrial product. But can industrial products be art? Apparently they can, if they're placed in to a gallery and looked at in a certain way. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)
  - WalterSear 6y ago
    It certainly may, but craftsmanship does not require creativity. And creativity can be realized despite poor craftsmanship. A master luthier does not invent a brand new type of instrument each time they create a guitar. They may have learnt to make guitars from someone else, and do nothing but follow the process they have mastered. And, many authors are terrible at much of their craft, and yet so creative that their prose is still engaging. While the real world is invariably messier than this, that does not mean that one can conflate craftmanship and creativity as the author does. TBH, I'm afraid that I'm finding it's hard to see the author's conflation of the two as anything but culturalist.
  - wahern 6y ago
    Abstract art is about representing something invisible in a culture. It's like comedy--the joke only lands if it resonates with some unspoken, often even unrealized, but shared experience. And abstract artists, like comedians, keep hammering on very similar themes, even if their output is superficially diverse throughout their career. IOW, they're like craftsmen who become increasingly, intimately familiar with some shape or form, the ways it can be manipulated, and (to the extent they're interested) reintegrated into the culture. There's much more craftsmanship (e.g. the cultivation of tacit knowledge) in abstract art than meets the eye. Relative to the entire process, the substantive novelity, such it is, is so miniscule that I would hesitate to say that it's greater than what can be found in the more mundane crafts, at least when comparing people of similar intensity, intelligence, and devotion. And often the reverse may be true, as the constraints in working on well-trodden ground can be challenging and inspiring. That's my $0.02. ;) TL;DR: I agree.

That's an interesting perspective and a valuable way of looking at things. I'll have to consider that deeper. I'm not sure I would call it "creativity," though. I'll have to think about that, too.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

I certainly wouldn't call it creativity. Making wheels and dealing with grief are craftsmanship. There's nothing wrong with craftsmanship, but genuine originality is rarer. This shouldn't be controversial, because it's the difference between making good wheels and inventing the idea of the wheel in the first place.

pmoriarty 6y ago
Craftsmanship gets a bad rap in the arts, and is widely considered to be somehow "lesser" than "True Art". The work of craftsmen is often denigrated as being unoriginal and indistinguishable, but quite often a craftsman's work bears the distinctive stamp of its creator, and when you look closely you can tell one craftsman's work from another. Craftspeople also do innovate in technique and coming up with new motifs. The line between craft and art is blurry, and there are good arguments to be made for craft to be considered art. I am reminded also of the snobbish attitude some people have towards genre fiction and genre films. Work made in a genre is often seen as somehow lesser or not worthy compared to "serious" film and fiction. However, again and again genre films and fiction come out which are widely considered to be masterpieces. I'm thinking of, say, Kubrick's work in science fiction and horror (2001 and The Shining), Philip K Dick's science fiction, and Lovecraft's horror. Many of their works are now considered masterpieces despite working in what were once considered to be backwater genres. What is considered to be art has also radically changed over the millennia. Many things now considered to be high art (like, say, Duchamp's Fountain[1]) are considered masterpieces of art that broke new ground, but at the same time it could be argued that it's not art at all, and in fact any work of a craftsperson has more of a claim to the term "art" than something like Duchamp's Fountain, which wasn't even made by Duchamp, and is a mere industrial product. But can industrial products be art? Apparently they can, if they're placed in to a gallery and looked at in a certain way. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)
- WalterSear 6y ago
  It certainly may, but craftsmanship does not require creativity. And creativity can be realized despite poor craftsmanship. A master luthier does not invent a brand new type of instrument each time they create a guitar. They may have learnt to make guitars from someone else, and do nothing but follow the process they have mastered. And, many authors are terrible at much of their craft, and yet so creative that their prose is still engaging. While the real world is invariably messier than this, that does not mean that one can conflate craftmanship and creativity as the author does. TBH, I'm afraid that I'm finding it's hard to see the author's conflation of the two as anything but culturalist.
- wahern 6y ago
  Abstract art is about representing something invisible in a culture. It's like comedy--the joke only lands if it resonates with some unspoken, often even unrealized, but shared experience. And abstract artists, like comedians, keep hammering on very similar themes, even if their output is superficially diverse throughout their career. IOW, they're like craftsmen who become increasingly, intimately familiar with some shape or form, the ways it can be manipulated, and (to the extent they're interested) reintegrated into the culture. There's much more craftsmanship (e.g. the cultivation of tacit knowledge) in abstract art than meets the eye. Relative to the entire process, the substantive novelity, such it is, is so miniscule that I would hesitate to say that it's greater than what can be found in the more mundane crafts, at least when comparing people of similar intensity, intelligence, and devotion. And often the reverse may be true, as the constraints in working on well-trodden ground can be challenging and inspiring. That's my $0.02. ;) TL;DR: I agree.