12 ms·

It's not really surprising to anyone I think. School is hell for lots of teenagers. You're forced into a prison like setting with strict rules and little freedo

by nvarsj 6y ago

It's not really surprising to anyone I think. School is hell for lots of teenagers. You're forced into a prison like setting with strict rules and little freedom, and you're forced to interact with a huge number of immature people of similar age - of whom the chances are a few will make your life hell, and you have no choice in getting away from it. I would have been 100% happier as a kid if I could have simply done my education on my own or virtually, and spent my time with people I actually enjoyed the company of. Sort of what it's like to be an adult actually. The modern school system is such a terrible model.

dcolkitt 6y ago
The other issue to consider is that the vast majority of American high schools have start times that are far too early for the typical teenager's circadian rhythm.[1] Sleep deprivation has a major effect on generalized anxiety[2]. The research I would like to see done, is to test whether the groups of students with the earliest starting schools saw larger drops in anxiety during the transition to full remote. [1]https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.html https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.h... [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0005791610000315 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00057...
abyssin 6y ago
A big part of what makes school uncomfortable is related to the physical space in which it takes place. As you said it, it has many attributes of a prison. Too crowded, which means too noisy. Closed, which means there's no room for breathing when things get socially too heated. Little privacy. In many places of the world, included rich ones, schools are in a state of disrepair. And in general, they display a situation where users have no input in the design process.
badrabbit 6y ago
American schools resemble actual prisons in many ways. From the architecture of buildings to the freezing temperature (prisoners fight less when cold) they are shockingly similar. And they have to wake up unnaturrally early. I think it all comes down to how students are seen by architects and the school system in general. I wonder if private schools are different.
- mtalantikite 6y ago
  My high school had windows you couldn’t see out of at all. They were made of plastic when built in the 70s and the material degraded within a few years and turned opaque. Class started at about 7:20, which meant I “woke up” at 6 (usually after staying up super late hacking on things on the late 90s Internet). Lunch was at like 10:45 and was barely food with no water, if I ate at all. It definitely felt like we were trapped in there and held against our will.
  - badrabbit 6y ago
    I think Japanese schools are something to learn from. They usually have openable windows to let fresh air in, the "commons" area is usually outdoor and students cleanup and care for the school itself -- which teaches students to be responsible and it makes them feel like they are an essential part of the school, not brains to be herded. I don't care much for the uniforms though. Now I am curious how schools in scandanavia are, given their famous prisons.
    - sosborn 6y ago
      Uh, Japanese schools are way more prison like. There are some positive attributes (as you mention), but overall it is not a great system to model.
      - rosseloh 6y ago
        There's a lot to...not like, about Japanese schools, but the whole "students take care of cleaning" thing is something I do think would be nice to see in the US. But that's the same part of me talking that wishes everyone was "forced" to work a retail or food service job for a year or two of their life. Probably impossible to actually do and enforce here, but would definitely make people overall be nicer and more considerate of others (and in the case of cleaning schools, more likely to clean up after themselves).
  - kickout 6y ago
    Come on, if you are referring to schools in the U.S this is a gross misrepresentation of reality. School lunches are mandated by federal law (milk and/or juice is to be provided). Its hardly 'no food at all'. The fact _you choose_ to stay up all night hacking on things does not matter in the hours of school operation. What about the people that go to bed at 8 and are morning people?
yesimahuman 6y ago
My high school experience was very different from this. We were given a lot of freedom and treated like young college students. I guess that isn't the norm so I'm thankful for the experience. I can imagine that things might have tightened up since 2002-06.
- nvarsj 6y ago
  YMMV. I have a good friend who went to an American international school in Belgium that did the IB. It was a lot like you describe - many more freedoms and the teenagers were treated more like adults. He had a very good experience there. My experience at a large state school in the Bay Area was pretty much the opposite.
snarf21 6y ago
I agree that school is challenging for kids. However, isn't work also "a prison like setting with strict rules and little freedom, and you're forced to interact with a huge number of immature people of similar age"? I agree we need school reforms but kids also crave schedule and interaction. I'm not sure how they get those while their parents are away at work. We can argue about what the perfect interactions are for kids. People can also decide to do home schooling if they don't like the existing systems. In the end, life is complicated and anxiety inducing. We all need these life skills to deal with these stresses. I think we need more classes specifically around teaching coping skills and learning how to interact with others. I think that will be more beneficial than kids just staying in their bedrooms everyday.
- Falling3 6y ago
  > However, isn't work also "a prison like setting I've never worked anywhere that I needed permission to use the bathroom.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    Controlled bathroom breaks are very much a feature of some work environments. https://theconversation.com/companies-target-toilet-breaks-to-improve-productivity-its-wrong-and-it-wont-work-130275 https://theconversation.com/companies-target-toilet-breaks-t...
  - bawolff 6y ago
    Hell my job is a lot like staying in my bedroom everyday.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    You're lucky. Most of us have, at some point.
    - Falling3 6y ago
      "Most of us"? Really? I absolutely acknowledge that some jobs do this as other commenters have noted. But "most" sounds like an extreme stretch. I've he;d plenty of low-paying, manual labor jobs and never even heard of the practice until the last few years. It's the overwhelming norm at schools and - as far as I've seen - fairly exceptional at a job.
derefr 6y ago
> huge number of immature people of similar age Not just that, but they’re also actively isolated from people who aren’t of similar age. Teenagers (who don’t happen to have an older sibling) go through the identity-crisis period of puberty entirely without role-models to, well, model. Other than the made-up, exaggerated ones they see in TV shows. It’s no wonder the adopted behaviour of most teenagers feels instead like some sort of cargo-culting of adult behavior, rather than a gradual acquisition of actual maturity; and no wonder that it’s such a mental shock for many teenagers when they either enter college or the working world, and so get exposed to non-age-segregated collaborative settings for the first time.
- vkou 6y ago
  > a mental shock for many teenagers when they either enter college The typical live-in-a-dorm college experience is not so much a mental shock as is about putting off adult life for another four years, while you party. And, while older (30+) students do exist, most of them don't live in dorms (And those that do, don't live with all the 18-20 year olds.) They will be, at best on the distant periphery of your peer group. For most people, college does not solve this problem.
  - JCharante 6y ago
    Although undergrad is an opportunity to work in a research lab where you start to collaborate with graduate students and the professor that runs the lab. Additionally universities have many "students" (TAs,SAs,PLAs, there's many titles for them) running classes, so it provides a role model for students in a digestible n+1 format.
    - vkou 6y ago
      The overwhelming majority of students who go to college never see the inside of a lab - unless they need to stop by the 'computer lab' to print something off. Most people, as it turns out, don't pursue technical degrees. Fewer than 10% of degrees are in STEM fields, with another ~10% being in a medicine-adjacent field. The number of undegraduates who actually go on to do meaningful, novel, work in a lab (As opposed to just using a facility for a few hours, in order to pass a course) is even smaller than that.
higerordermap 6y ago
Reminds me of Paul Graham's "why nerds are unpopular". His rants on school system are awesome!! The endless bureaucracy and inefficiency of the school system frustrates all kinds of people.
- abracadaniel 6y ago
  That was one of the most fascinating things I've read this year. It put into words, many things that now seem obvious in retrospect, but that I couldn't quite articulate before. With the absence of role models, we form these mini-societies at an age when we are at our most cruel and judgemental, largely because there isn't anything else that seems more important at that age than social dynamics.
kickout 6y ago
Where or how would you meet real people that have similar interests? Humans are social creatures, not online learning creatures
- disown 6y ago
  > Where or how would you meet real people that have similar interests? From your family/friend/neighborhood groups? Are you saying schools are where you go to meet people of similar interests? How can that be when schools are for everyone? > Humans are social creatures Humans are social creatures with in-group bias. Especially young kids. Schools are an unnatural system for humans. It's why kids universally don't like school. It's why you have to force, trick and brainwash them into liking school. You might want to read up on the history of modern education system. They certainly weren't created to meet people with similar interests.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    The problem we have right now is that schools were closed but other social avenues weren't/aren't open. We have the option here in Ontario to keep our kids home and do home learning. But anything else the kids might do to get social exposure and even physical exertion is effectively closed. Real home schooled kids usually have clubs and so on that they attend to hang out with other kids. That avenue is closed off. My kids have to go back, just for their own mental health. As awful as the schools might be right now, they'll be better than being stuck at home playing Dragon Quest Builders II through for the third time.
  - kickout 6y ago
    Kids don't universally like anything (good or bad for them--thats kids in general), so that argument is irrelevant. Family? Mom and Dad are 2 people? Did you follow the footsteps of either? Probably not as you have unique interests and tastes. Neighborhood groups? I grew up in an area where I was the only child within 6 blocks? Am I out of luck? Schools _are_ the neighborhood group!!! Edit: I am well-versed on both the history and current status of the education system. Both my parents and my spouse are full-time teachers.
Taylor_OD 6y ago
I think you had a specific, but not unique, experience at school. Lots of people find it, as well as the rules and structure, an escape from their home life which is much worse than school could ever be.
cwhiz 6y ago
We already have enough difficulty having constructive arguments or disagreements. If we removed the social aspect of schooling we would have an entire generation of people with the softest skin imaginable. No conflict resolution abilities whatsoever.
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  I have seen the "conflict resolution" results - it is better described as actively misteaching. It leaves some scarred for life while teaching others to actively be bad actors. They would be better off without that and the hazing mentality.
  - cwhiz 6y ago
    Assholes exist as adults, too. You can't hide reality from children. At some point they are going to have to deal with an asshole.
diogenescynic 6y ago
I would bet it has less to do with school being hell and bet it had more to do with less Instagram bragging. Everyone is basically at home on lockdown with is fairly equal. No one is really out traveling or doing anything cool.
zanecraw 6y ago
good points i totally agree. now that they have it online, they can relax in knowing that they don't have to worry about being trapped with multiple kids that you hate for 7 hours every day.
jariel 6y ago
I don't think this is accurate reflection for most people although I do agree it can be stressful. That 'life can cause anxiety' doesn't mean it's bad. Learning anything, exams, trying new things - it's all going to cause some degree of stress and anxiety. School has constraints, but most of those constraints exist for self-learning anyhow - it takes a fair degree of composure or focus anyhow. School is not 'living hell' for the vast majority of kids, I don't even know a single person who ever described it that way, though I'm sure it exists. Structured learning has really no equivalent, especially for those who want to engage. There are obvious reforms that could be made, not the least of which would be students approaches. Also - a lot more sports (daily), music, and longer term projects and probably some kind of structured free time. It's not bad at all, it's just far from perfect.
heavenlyblue 6y ago
While I kind of agree with you - why do you think that coming out of the school is any different from being in the school itself? You will still be forced to interact with a bunch of immature kids after school except this time they will not even know they are still children and may be responsible for paying your salary, too.

by nvarsj 6y ago

dcolkitt 6y ago

The other issue to consider is that the vast majority of American high schools have start times that are far too early for the typical teenager's circadian rhythm.[1] Sleep deprivation has a major effect on generalized anxiety[2]. The research I would like to see done, is to test whether the groups of students with the earliest starting schools saw larger drops in anxiety during the transition to full remote. [1]https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.html https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.h... [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0005791610000315 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00057...

abyssin 6y ago

A big part of what makes school uncomfortable is related to the physical space in which it takes place. As you said it, it has many attributes of a prison. Too crowded, which means too noisy. Closed, which means there's no room for breathing when things get socially too heated. Little privacy. In many places of the world, included rich ones, schools are in a state of disrepair. And in general, they display a situation where users have no input in the design process.

badrabbit 6y ago

American schools resemble actual prisons in many ways. From the architecture of buildings to the freezing temperature (prisoners fight less when cold) they are shockingly similar. And they have to wake up unnaturrally early. I think it all comes down to how students are seen by architects and the school system in general. I wonder if private schools are different.

mtalantikite 6y ago
My high school had windows you couldn’t see out of at all. They were made of plastic when built in the 70s and the material degraded within a few years and turned opaque. Class started at about 7:20, which meant I “woke up” at 6 (usually after staying up super late hacking on things on the late 90s Internet). Lunch was at like 10:45 and was barely food with no water, if I ate at all. It definitely felt like we were trapped in there and held against our will.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  I think Japanese schools are something to learn from. They usually have openable windows to let fresh air in, the "commons" area is usually outdoor and students cleanup and care for the school itself -- which teaches students to be responsible and it makes them feel like they are an essential part of the school, not brains to be herded. I don't care much for the uniforms though. Now I am curious how schools in scandanavia are, given their famous prisons.
  - sosborn 6y ago
    Uh, Japanese schools are way more prison like. There are some positive attributes (as you mention), but overall it is not a great system to model.
    - rosseloh 6y ago
      There's a lot to...not like, about Japanese schools, but the whole "students take care of cleaning" thing is something I do think would be nice to see in the US. But that's the same part of me talking that wishes everyone was "forced" to work a retail or food service job for a year or two of their life. Probably impossible to actually do and enforce here, but would definitely make people overall be nicer and more considerate of others (and in the case of cleaning schools, more likely to clean up after themselves).
- kickout 6y ago
  Come on, if you are referring to schools in the U.S this is a gross misrepresentation of reality. School lunches are mandated by federal law (milk and/or juice is to be provided). Its hardly 'no food at all'. The fact _you choose_ to stay up all night hacking on things does not matter in the hours of school operation. What about the people that go to bed at 8 and are morning people?

yesimahuman 6y ago

My high school experience was very different from this. We were given a lot of freedom and treated like young college students. I guess that isn't the norm so I'm thankful for the experience. I can imagine that things might have tightened up since 2002-06.

nvarsj 6y ago
YMMV. I have a good friend who went to an American international school in Belgium that did the IB. It was a lot like you describe - many more freedoms and the teenagers were treated more like adults. He had a very good experience there. My experience at a large state school in the Bay Area was pretty much the opposite.

snarf21 6y ago

I agree that school is challenging for kids. However, isn't work also "a prison like setting with strict rules and little freedom, and you're forced to interact with a huge number of immature people of similar age"? I agree we need school reforms but kids also crave schedule and interaction. I'm not sure how they get those while their parents are away at work. We can argue about what the perfect interactions are for kids. People can also decide to do home schooling if they don't like the existing systems. In the end, life is complicated and anxiety inducing. We all need these life skills to deal with these stresses. I think we need more classes specifically around teaching coping skills and learning how to interact with others. I think that will be more beneficial than kids just staying in their bedrooms everyday.

Falling3 6y ago
> However, isn't work also "a prison like setting I've never worked anywhere that I needed permission to use the bathroom.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  Controlled bathroom breaks are very much a feature of some work environments. https://theconversation.com/companies-target-toilet-breaks-to-improve-productivity-its-wrong-and-it-wont-work-130275 https://theconversation.com/companies-target-toilet-breaks-t...
- bawolff 6y ago
  Hell my job is a lot like staying in my bedroom everyday.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  You're lucky. Most of us have, at some point.
  - Falling3 6y ago
    "Most of us"? Really? I absolutely acknowledge that some jobs do this as other commenters have noted. But "most" sounds like an extreme stretch. I've he;d plenty of low-paying, manual labor jobs and never even heard of the practice until the last few years. It's the overwhelming norm at schools and - as far as I've seen - fairly exceptional at a job.

derefr 6y ago

> huge number of immature people of similar age Not just that, but they’re also actively isolated from people who aren’t of similar age. Teenagers (who don’t happen to have an older sibling) go through the identity-crisis period of puberty entirely without role-models to, well, model. Other than the made-up, exaggerated ones they see in TV shows. It’s no wonder the adopted behaviour of most teenagers feels instead like some sort of cargo-culting of adult behavior, rather than a gradual acquisition of actual maturity; and no wonder that it’s such a mental shock for many teenagers when they either enter college or the working world, and so get exposed to non-age-segregated collaborative settings for the first time.

vkou 6y ago
> a mental shock for many teenagers when they either enter college The typical live-in-a-dorm college experience is not so much a mental shock as is about putting off adult life for another four years, while you party. And, while older (30+) students do exist, most of them don't live in dorms (And those that do, don't live with all the 18-20 year olds.) They will be, at best on the distant periphery of your peer group. For most people, college does not solve this problem.
- JCharante 6y ago
  Although undergrad is an opportunity to work in a research lab where you start to collaborate with graduate students and the professor that runs the lab. Additionally universities have many "students" (TAs,SAs,PLAs, there's many titles for them) running classes, so it provides a role model for students in a digestible n+1 format.
  - vkou 6y ago
    The overwhelming majority of students who go to college never see the inside of a lab - unless they need to stop by the 'computer lab' to print something off. Most people, as it turns out, don't pursue technical degrees. Fewer than 10% of degrees are in STEM fields, with another ~10% being in a medicine-adjacent field. The number of undegraduates who actually go on to do meaningful, novel, work in a lab (As opposed to just using a facility for a few hours, in order to pass a course) is even smaller than that.

higerordermap 6y ago

Reminds me of Paul Graham's "why nerds are unpopular". His rants on school system are awesome!! The endless bureaucracy and inefficiency of the school system frustrates all kinds of people.

abracadaniel 6y ago
That was one of the most fascinating things I've read this year. It put into words, many things that now seem obvious in retrospect, but that I couldn't quite articulate before. With the absence of role models, we form these mini-societies at an age when we are at our most cruel and judgemental, largely because there isn't anything else that seems more important at that age than social dynamics.

kickout 6y ago

Where or how would you meet real people that have similar interests? Humans are social creatures, not online learning creatures

disown 6y ago
> Where or how would you meet real people that have similar interests? From your family/friend/neighborhood groups? Are you saying schools are where you go to meet people of similar interests? How can that be when schools are for everyone? > Humans are social creatures Humans are social creatures with in-group bias. Especially young kids. Schools are an unnatural system for humans. It's why kids universally don't like school. It's why you have to force, trick and brainwash them into liking school. You might want to read up on the history of modern education system. They certainly weren't created to meet people with similar interests.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  The problem we have right now is that schools were closed but other social avenues weren't/aren't open. We have the option here in Ontario to keep our kids home and do home learning. But anything else the kids might do to get social exposure and even physical exertion is effectively closed. Real home schooled kids usually have clubs and so on that they attend to hang out with other kids. That avenue is closed off. My kids have to go back, just for their own mental health. As awful as the schools might be right now, they'll be better than being stuck at home playing Dragon Quest Builders II through for the third time.
- kickout 6y ago
  Kids don't universally like anything (good or bad for them--thats kids in general), so that argument is irrelevant. Family? Mom and Dad are 2 people? Did you follow the footsteps of either? Probably not as you have unique interests and tastes. Neighborhood groups? I grew up in an area where I was the only child within 6 blocks? Am I out of luck? Schools _are_ the neighborhood group!!! Edit: I am well-versed on both the history and current status of the education system. Both my parents and my spouse are full-time teachers.

Taylor_OD 6y ago

I think you had a specific, but not unique, experience at school. Lots of people find it, as well as the rules and structure, an escape from their home life which is much worse than school could ever be.

cwhiz 6y ago

We already have enough difficulty having constructive arguments or disagreements. If we removed the social aspect of schooling we would have an entire generation of people with the softest skin imaginable. No conflict resolution abilities whatsoever.

Nasrudith 6y ago
I have seen the "conflict resolution" results - it is better described as actively misteaching. It leaves some scarred for life while teaching others to actively be bad actors. They would be better off without that and the hazing mentality.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  Assholes exist as adults, too. You can't hide reality from children. At some point they are going to have to deal with an asshole.

diogenescynic 6y ago

I would bet it has less to do with school being hell and bet it had more to do with less Instagram bragging. Everyone is basically at home on lockdown with is fairly equal. No one is really out traveling or doing anything cool.

zanecraw 6y ago

good points i totally agree. now that they have it online, they can relax in knowing that they don't have to worry about being trapped with multiple kids that you hate for 7 hours every day.

jariel 6y ago

I don't think this is accurate reflection for most people although I do agree it can be stressful. That 'life can cause anxiety' doesn't mean it's bad. Learning anything, exams, trying new things - it's all going to cause some degree of stress and anxiety. School has constraints, but most of those constraints exist for self-learning anyhow - it takes a fair degree of composure or focus anyhow. School is not 'living hell' for the vast majority of kids, I don't even know a single person who ever described it that way, though I'm sure it exists. Structured learning has really no equivalent, especially for those who want to engage. There are obvious reforms that could be made, not the least of which would be students approaches. Also - a lot more sports (daily), music, and longer term projects and probably some kind of structured free time. It's not bad at all, it's just far from perfect.

heavenlyblue 6y ago

While I kind of agree with you - why do you think that coming out of the school is any different from being in the school itself? You will still be forced to interact with a bunch of immature kids after school except this time they will not even know they are still children and may be responsible for paying your salary, too.