6 ms·

We have unions in other countries too, they don't endorse or organize corruption/nepotism/bribery, or the appearance of such.

by jopsen 6y ago

emteycz 6y ago
Most European countries have a general police inspection and the unions are not as strong, and there are no 'federal employee' protections like the USA does.
- Anon1096 6y ago
  Most police aren't federal employees and thus have no "Federal employee protection".
  - emteycz 6y ago
    Good catch. what's the situation of ordinary policeman?
    - vkou 6y ago
      If you have tenure, and you don't cross the thin blue line, you are untouchable. Your local police union can absolutely ruin a local politician's career[1], and in general, make life hell for your city, so most of the politicians don't try to rock the boat. When they do, they discover that the police, despite being employees of the city will just refuse to do what they are told. Sheriffs magically turn into constitutional scholars, and start unilaterally choosing what laws to enforce[2], start blatantly violating the city's bylaws, and instructions from the mayor[3], and when pushed in the only way they can be hurt (The budget), engage in malicious compliance. Picking a fight with the police union is generally speaking, not a politically savvy move. [1] Mostly by doing a deliberately poor job in the district they represent, and being incredibly vocal that the reason they are doing a poor job, is because the politician is causing them problems. [2] A number of sheriffs across the country made it clear that they won't issue Covid mask/gathering citations, despite state and local law, because the law is an obvious violation of... Some constitutional amendment that they can't name. [3] After weeks of violence, Seattle city council banned the use of crowd control weapons. The SPD celebrated the very next day by gassing and blast-balling crowds.
      - jopsen 6y ago
        I can see how dismantling a police force by firing everyone, and starting from scratch is a non-trivial task.
        vkou 6y ago
        It would also probably be illegal in Seattle, due to the consent decree. [1] [1] The SPD has been under federal censure by the Department of Justice for the past 8 years, due to fragrant constitutional violations, excessive use of force, racist behaviour, lack of accountability, and a pattern of disciplinary failures. Because of this decree, federal permission is necessary for any large policy changes to be made to the department. Firing it, and starting from scratch would almost certainly qualify as a 'large policy change'. And, ah, the current administration has made it very clear as to where it stands on these sorts of questions.
        emteycz 6y ago
        This whole thread is like part of a crazy Batman themed nightmare to me
    - asdff 6y ago
      Lucrative. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-06/lapd-lafd-audit-overtime-city-controller https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-06/lapd-laf... http://lacity.payroll.finance.socrata.com/#!/year/2018 http://lacity.payroll.finance.socrata.com/#!/year/2018
dole 6y ago
Here's a good article [1] on some of the differences between classical workers' unions and American police unions. Many reasons but a few takeaways: "... the agendas of police unions mostly reflect the interests of the institution (the police department) rather than those of the working class." "Labor unions exist to protect people; police exist to protect property." [1]: https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-labor-movement https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-l...
- legitster 6y ago
  Unions don't necessarily exist to protect people. They protect members. Which is an important distinction. Just in our area there was a case where the longshore union organized slowdowns at the docks that eventually made them lose their contract with the only shipper in the area. What they were fighting for? Stealing two jobs from another union: https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/29/longshore-union-faces-bankruptcy-over-two-jobs-in-portland/ https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/29/longshore-union-faces-...
  - pulisse 6y ago
    > Unions don't necessarily exist to protect people. They protect members. Which is an important distinction. This is a point of contention between unions. Some (especially the traditional trade unions like the one you mention) see themselves as exclusively representing their current members. Others (typically the newer service industry unions like SEIU) see themselves as promoting the interests of a particular category of workers, whether currently members or not.
riffic 6y ago
Police unions are fundamentally different from other forms of organized labor. No other union is composed of members who hold the legal monopoly on violence.
- refurb 6y ago
  It’s the government that holds the monopoly on violence, not the police.
  - gruez 6y ago
    And the government in turn delegates that to the. What other profession can you kill an unarmed man and be back home for dinner the same day?
    - jopsen 6y ago
      > What other profession can you kill an unarmed man and be back home for dinner the same day? Doctor/surgeon? I think most of their patients are unarmed, hehe :) Joke aside, police outside the US generally can't do that either.
    - toast0 6y ago
      Lots of machine operating professions?
    - refurb 6y ago
      Well, their authority to kill comes from the gov’t, not the police force itself. If they kill someone they shouldn’t, then they get in trouble (yes, I know not always).

We have unions in other countries too, they don't endorse or organize corruption/nepotism/bribery, or the appearance of such.

by jopsen 6y ago

We have unions in other countries too, they don't endorse or organize corruption/nepotism/bribery, or the appearance of such.

emteycz 6y ago

Most European countries have a general police inspection and the unions are not as strong, and there are no 'federal employee' protections like the USA does.

Anon1096 6y ago
Most police aren't federal employees and thus have no "Federal employee protection".
- emteycz 6y ago
  Good catch. what's the situation of ordinary policeman?
  - vkou 6y ago
    If you have tenure, and you don't cross the thin blue line, you are untouchable. Your local police union can absolutely ruin a local politician's career[1], and in general, make life hell for your city, so most of the politicians don't try to rock the boat. When they do, they discover that the police, despite being employees of the city will just refuse to do what they are told. Sheriffs magically turn into constitutional scholars, and start unilaterally choosing what laws to enforce[2], start blatantly violating the city's bylaws, and instructions from the mayor[3], and when pushed in the only way they can be hurt (The budget), engage in malicious compliance. Picking a fight with the police union is generally speaking, not a politically savvy move. [1] Mostly by doing a deliberately poor job in the district they represent, and being incredibly vocal that the reason they are doing a poor job, is because the politician is causing them problems. [2] A number of sheriffs across the country made it clear that they won't issue Covid mask/gathering citations, despite state and local law, because the law is an obvious violation of... Some constitutional amendment that they can't name. [3] After weeks of violence, Seattle city council banned the use of crowd control weapons. The SPD celebrated the very next day by gassing and blast-balling crowds.
    - jopsen 6y ago
      I can see how dismantling a police force by firing everyone, and starting from scratch is a non-trivial task.
      - vkou 6y ago
        It would also probably be illegal in Seattle, due to the consent decree. [1] [1] The SPD has been under federal censure by the Department of Justice for the past 8 years, due to fragrant constitutional violations, excessive use of force, racist behaviour, lack of accountability, and a pattern of disciplinary failures. Because of this decree, federal permission is necessary for any large policy changes to be made to the department. Firing it, and starting from scratch would almost certainly qualify as a 'large policy change'. And, ah, the current administration has made it very clear as to where it stands on these sorts of questions.
        emteycz 6y ago
        This whole thread is like part of a crazy Batman themed nightmare to me
  - asdff 6y ago
    Lucrative. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-06/lapd-lafd-audit-overtime-city-controller https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-06/lapd-laf... http://lacity.payroll.finance.socrata.com/#!/year/2018 http://lacity.payroll.finance.socrata.com/#!/year/2018

dole 6y ago

Here's a good article [1] on some of the differences between classical workers' unions and American police unions. Many reasons but a few takeaways: "... the agendas of police unions mostly reflect the interests of the institution (the police department) rather than those of the working class." "Labor unions exist to protect people; police exist to protect property." [1]: https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-labor-movement https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-l...

legitster 6y ago
Unions don't necessarily exist to protect people. They protect members. Which is an important distinction. Just in our area there was a case where the longshore union organized slowdowns at the docks that eventually made them lose their contract with the only shipper in the area. What they were fighting for? Stealing two jobs from another union: https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/29/longshore-union-faces-bankruptcy-over-two-jobs-in-portland/ https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/29/longshore-union-faces-...
- pulisse 6y ago
  > Unions don't necessarily exist to protect people. They protect members. Which is an important distinction. This is a point of contention between unions. Some (especially the traditional trade unions like the one you mention) see themselves as exclusively representing their current members. Others (typically the newer service industry unions like SEIU) see themselves as promoting the interests of a particular category of workers, whether currently members or not.

riffic 6y ago

Police unions are fundamentally different from other forms of organized labor. No other union is composed of members who hold the legal monopoly on violence.

refurb 6y ago
It’s the government that holds the monopoly on violence, not the police.
- gruez 6y ago
  And the government in turn delegates that to the. What other profession can you kill an unarmed man and be back home for dinner the same day?
  - jopsen 6y ago
    > What other profession can you kill an unarmed man and be back home for dinner the same day? Doctor/surgeon? I think most of their patients are unarmed, hehe :) Joke aside, police outside the US generally can't do that either.
  - toast0 6y ago
    Lots of machine operating professions?
  - refurb 6y ago
    Well, their authority to kill comes from the gov’t, not the police force itself. If they kill someone they shouldn’t, then they get in trouble (yes, I know not always).