6 ms·

Here's the issue that lots of people fail to understand. Once it's figured out, a lot of fixes can happen. The "Police" are departments of city/state politicia

Here's the issue that lots of people fail to understand. Once it's figured out, a lot of fixes can happen. The "Police" are departments of city/state politicians. "Sheriff" is an elected offices for a county. The current dialogue of "the police are doing XYZ" is extremely stupid and unproductive. The reality, "mayors/councilmen/governors/politicians are telling police to do XYZ". Within a county, the sheriff has the highest law enforcement jurisdiction below the US Marshal cowboying in and taking away their badges. They can even arrest FBI, ATF and ignore Fed requests in general (limitations to this, especially due to paperwork, but the legal right is there). This is why you get plenty of Sheriffs saying, "I and my deputies will not enforce XYZ law". Why? Because the Sheriff reports directly to "the people" of the county. He/she is an elected official. Sometimes, they're not even prior law enforcement. But they have a direct dialogue with their voter base (most of the time) because they have a rather direct cause/effect of their time in "office". Also why it's called a Sheriff's Office instead of department (when people know what they're doing... some states are weird/dumb). The "police" report to the politicians of their jurisdiction. When certain mayors say, "The police are doing naughty things"... dude... they're on the mayor's orders. The chief can be instantly booted out by the mayor. "It's a travesty that police are overly patrolling certain sectors". YOU APPROVE THE SECTORS AND MADE THE LAWS FOR THEM TO DO SO! "The cops shouldn't be funded through forfeiture/tickets/etc." The politicians are the ones who put that system in place! Police don't make laws, they enforce them according to their hiring governing body... their city/town. Please, people of the USA, for the love of all things good, learn about your local politicians and vote. Quit this crap of these mayors acting surprised and shifting the blame to the police. The politicians are the ones telling them what to do. Stop being surprised and ignorant. In the end, the public is to blame for, "Politicians have our best interests at heart if we don't pay attention to what they're doing." I don't care what party you belong to, it's your responsibility to keep a politician in check, no matter their party as well.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> The current dialogue of "the police are doing XYZ" is extremely stupid and unproductive. The reality, "mayors/councilmen/governors/politicians are telling police to do XYZ". If you actually follow local politics, you'll often find that, if the police are even following directions are all, that behind those directions, the most powerful interest group promoting those local policies and able to defeat politicians that displease them is...the police.
- mdavis6890 6y ago
  Only because people consistently vote with the police. So if we the voters stopped voting for whoever the police tell us to, things would get better. I think there's a union component to this as well. A lot of people vote along with unions, especially public unions. This is an interesting case where the people most upset with the police are also the ones who tend to like unions (and where unions have political/voter influence), creating a bit of tension. I think this results in focusing on the police themselves, rather than the upstream causes that you're identifying. Anyway, in case it wasn't clear - I'm totally agreeing with you :-)
ch4s3 6y ago
> The chief can be instantly booted out by the mayor. Many cities have trie this, and the police circle up behind their union rep and keep doing what hey were doing before.
buerkle 6y ago
In many cities the mayor cannot fire the police chief. In my city in Texas, the city council can only fire the city attorney and the city manager. Of course, the mayor and council can apply pressure to the city manager, but it's not as easy as "booted out by the mayor".
- csilverman 6y ago
  And in a lot of situations, the police chief can't even (permanently) get rid of bad cops, even if they want to. The fired officers sue with the backing of the union, and are often rehired. There was an NYT article a while ago—I'll see if I can find it—featuring a number of chiefs who described how they'd fired cops guilty of everything from small-time incompetence to horrific abuses of power. They were forced to rehire these idiots after lawsuits.
rtkwe 6y ago
> "The police are doing naughty things"... dude... they're on the mayor's orders. The chief can be instantly booted out by the mayor. It's not quite that straight forward. The police have powerful buttons to push to influence the mayor through as well; strikes, blue flu, media, etc. On top of that the mayor is constrained by the union contracts as to what they can demand the police do.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Isn't that like saying "the President really has no ability to stop the military from invading a country, sure, he's the Commander In Chief, but they have powerful buttons to push ..."?
  - scarface74 6y ago
    The difference is that the military has a long history and culture of respecting the rules and not being outright defiant of civilian control whether or not they agree with them. The military doesn’t have a powerful union that protects bad members. In fact, when Trump pardoned someone who was convicted by a military tribunal, the military brass was livid.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    When that happens, it's a military coup. Some people argue that the extent to which police can intimidate local government has almost reached the same level; there are all sorts of recent examples. e.g. Doxing a councilwoman after which her neighbour was raped in her home as a possible mistaken identity attack: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8498489/Oklahoma-city-councilor-says-neighbor-raped-two-cops-posted-address-online.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8498489/Oklahoma-ci...
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      Well, no, a military coup would be if the military invaded their own country. Invading a different country is something else.
shortandsweet 6y ago
How do you know so much about the organizational structure? I would like to learn more, everything from the secretary on up to the potus.
scarface74 6y ago
This is all nice in theory. But if you are a minority and repeatedly mistreated by the police, the majority either doesn’t know or doesn’t care. It’s not that police abuse and lying just started happening the last few years, it is just now getting recorded and streamed.
aww_dang 6y ago
I'm sure most have heard the lecture about how essential participation in democratic institutions is. Another option is to just opt-out and move elsewhere. Find ways of living where these things don't impact you.
ceejayoz 6y ago
> The current dialogue of "the police are doing XYZ" is extremely stupid and unproductive. The reality, "mayors/councilmen/governors/politicians are telling police to do XYZ". Frequently, no. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/nypd-union-war-de-blasio.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/nypd-union-war-de-bl... > When Mayor Bill de Blasio tweeted his outrage at the violence — claiming the shootings were an attack not only on police but “on ALL New Yorkers and everything we believe in” — the official Twitter account for the Sergeants Benevolent Association replied in characteristic fashion: “Mayor DeBlasio, the members of the NYPD are declaring war on you! We do not respect you, DO NOT visit us in hospitals. You sold the NYPD to the vile creatures, the 1% who hate cops but vote for you. NYPD cops have been assassinated because of you. This isn’t over, Game on!” https://gizmodo.com/nypd-union-doxes-mayors-daughter-on-twitter-1843813751 https://gizmodo.com/nypd-union-doxes-mayors-daughter-on-twit... > A New York City Police Department union known for its controversial attacks against Mayor Bill de Blasio tweeted out the personally identifying information of his daughter on Sunday night, including a residential address and her New York State ID number. Or this: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-coronavirus-face-masks-sheriffs-refuse-enforce-governor-abbott-order/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-coronavirus-face-masks-sh... > A growing number of sheriffs in Texas say they are refusing to follow a recent executive order requiring masks in public. Governor Greg Abbott's mandate aims to slow the spread of coronavirus, as cases in the state soared past 200,000 on Tuesday. Ohio: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ohio-face-mask-order-governor-mike-dewine-sheriff-richard-jones-a9611226.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ohio-face-... Wisconsin: https://www.tmj4.com/news/coronavirus/these-wisconsin-sheriffs-say-they-wont-enforce-gov-tony-evers-statewide-mask-order https://www.tmj4.com/news/coronavirus/these-wisconsin-sherif... Indiana: https://www.newsweek.com/indiana-sheriffs-refuse-enforce-statewide-mask-order-that-makes-not-wearing-one-punishable-6-1520287 https://www.newsweek.com/indiana-sheriffs-refuse-enforce-sta... Michigan: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/12/west-michigan-county-sheriff-enforce-whitmer-mask-order/5423837002/ https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/12/w...
potta_coffee 6y ago
The police themselves are really driving civil asset forfeiture. It's a huge revenue stream for police departments. And if your state allows civil asset forfeiture, the worst offenders may be the state police, which is a much more distant entity to hold accountable than your local sheriff.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> The current dialogue of "the police are doing XYZ" is extremely stupid and unproductive. The reality, "mayors/councilmen/governors/politicians are telling police to do XYZ". If you actually follow local politics, you'll often find that, if the police are even following directions are all, that behind those directions, the most powerful interest group promoting those local policies and able to defeat politicians that displease them is...the police.

mdavis6890 6y ago
Only because people consistently vote with the police. So if we the voters stopped voting for whoever the police tell us to, things would get better. I think there's a union component to this as well. A lot of people vote along with unions, especially public unions. This is an interesting case where the people most upset with the police are also the ones who tend to like unions (and where unions have political/voter influence), creating a bit of tension. I think this results in focusing on the police themselves, rather than the upstream causes that you're identifying. Anyway, in case it wasn't clear - I'm totally agreeing with you :-)

ch4s3 6y ago

> The chief can be instantly booted out by the mayor. Many cities have trie this, and the police circle up behind their union rep and keep doing what hey were doing before.

buerkle 6y ago

In many cities the mayor cannot fire the police chief. In my city in Texas, the city council can only fire the city attorney and the city manager. Of course, the mayor and council can apply pressure to the city manager, but it's not as easy as "booted out by the mayor".

csilverman 6y ago
And in a lot of situations, the police chief can't even (permanently) get rid of bad cops, even if they want to. The fired officers sue with the backing of the union, and are often rehired. There was an NYT article a while ago—I'll see if I can find it—featuring a number of chiefs who described how they'd fired cops guilty of everything from small-time incompetence to horrific abuses of power. They were forced to rehire these idiots after lawsuits.

rtkwe 6y ago

> "The police are doing naughty things"... dude... they're on the mayor's orders. The chief can be instantly booted out by the mayor. It's not quite that straight forward. The police have powerful buttons to push to influence the mayor through as well; strikes, blue flu, media, etc. On top of that the mayor is constrained by the union contracts as to what they can demand the police do.

luckylion 6y ago
Isn't that like saying "the President really has no ability to stop the military from invading a country, sure, he's the Commander In Chief, but they have powerful buttons to push ..."?
- scarface74 6y ago
  The difference is that the military has a long history and culture of respecting the rules and not being outright defiant of civilian control whether or not they agree with them. The military doesn’t have a powerful union that protects bad members. In fact, when Trump pardoned someone who was convicted by a military tribunal, the military brass was livid.
- pjc50 6y ago
  When that happens, it's a military coup. Some people argue that the extent to which police can intimidate local government has almost reached the same level; there are all sorts of recent examples. e.g. Doxing a councilwoman after which her neighbour was raped in her home as a possible mistaken identity attack: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8498489/Oklahoma-city-councilor-says-neighbor-raped-two-cops-posted-address-online.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8498489/Oklahoma-ci...
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    Well, no, a military coup would be if the military invaded their own country. Invading a different country is something else.

shortandsweet 6y ago

How do you know so much about the organizational structure? I would like to learn more, everything from the secretary on up to the potus.

scarface74 6y ago

This is all nice in theory. But if you are a minority and repeatedly mistreated by the police, the majority either doesn’t know or doesn’t care. It’s not that police abuse and lying just started happening the last few years, it is just now getting recorded and streamed.

aww_dang 6y ago

I'm sure most have heard the lecture about how essential participation in democratic institutions is. Another option is to just opt-out and move elsewhere. Find ways of living where these things don't impact you.

ceejayoz 6y ago

> The current dialogue of "the police are doing XYZ" is extremely stupid and unproductive. The reality, "mayors/councilmen/governors/politicians are telling police to do XYZ". Frequently, no. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/nypd-union-war-de-blasio.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/nypd-union-war-de-bl... > When Mayor Bill de Blasio tweeted his outrage at the violence — claiming the shootings were an attack not only on police but “on ALL New Yorkers and everything we believe in” — the official Twitter account for the Sergeants Benevolent Association replied in characteristic fashion: “Mayor DeBlasio, the members of the NYPD are declaring war on you! We do not respect you, DO NOT visit us in hospitals. You sold the NYPD to the vile creatures, the 1% who hate cops but vote for you. NYPD cops have been assassinated because of you. This isn’t over, Game on!” https://gizmodo.com/nypd-union-doxes-mayors-daughter-on-twitter-1843813751 https://gizmodo.com/nypd-union-doxes-mayors-daughter-on-twit... > A New York City Police Department union known for its controversial attacks against Mayor Bill de Blasio tweeted out the personally identifying information of his daughter on Sunday night, including a residential address and her New York State ID number. Or this: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-coronavirus-face-masks-sheriffs-refuse-enforce-governor-abbott-order/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-coronavirus-face-masks-sh... > A growing number of sheriffs in Texas say they are refusing to follow a recent executive order requiring masks in public. Governor Greg Abbott's mandate aims to slow the spread of coronavirus, as cases in the state soared past 200,000 on Tuesday. Ohio: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ohio-face-mask-order-governor-mike-dewine-sheriff-richard-jones-a9611226.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ohio-face-... Wisconsin: https://www.tmj4.com/news/coronavirus/these-wisconsin-sheriffs-say-they-wont-enforce-gov-tony-evers-statewide-mask-order https://www.tmj4.com/news/coronavirus/these-wisconsin-sherif... Indiana: https://www.newsweek.com/indiana-sheriffs-refuse-enforce-statewide-mask-order-that-makes-not-wearing-one-punishable-6-1520287 https://www.newsweek.com/indiana-sheriffs-refuse-enforce-sta... Michigan: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/12/west-michigan-county-sheriff-enforce-whitmer-mask-order/5423837002/ https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/12/w...

potta_coffee 6y ago

The police themselves are really driving civil asset forfeiture. It's a huge revenue stream for police departments. And if your state allows civil asset forfeiture, the worst offenders may be the state police, which is a much more distant entity to hold accountable than your local sheriff.