11 ms·

Russia’s ‘slow-motion Chernobyl’ at sea

57 points by LandR 6y ago

LandR 6y ago
The headline from the BBC is a bit sensationalist I think, but that's what they have. Interesting article about retrieving the submarines though.
- aaron695 6y ago
  I was going to say Chernobyl created a huge wilderness park, these just sit there doing nothing. But if they do pull then up and have an accident the article claims fishing might have to stop for a while, so perhaps they are as good? I'm dubious on the claims though. Either way, the tech and recovery is the interesting bit.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    Fishing might stop in the area due to adverse publicity, but not because of the radiation. Chernobyl fallout fell and was concentrated on the surface of the earth, a two-dimensional plane. Oceans are three-dimensional. Even a chernobyl-magnitude radiation event will be quickly diluted into the hundreds of cubic-kilometers of water that passes over every point in the ocean daily. It is hard to wrap one's head around exactly how big, how literally massive, oceans are.
maga20yes 6y ago
Russia is required to behave under first world standards when it comes to their commitments, but it's relegated to third world when it comes to participating in global leadership/trade.
- evgen 6y ago
  Maybe if they were not such a complete kleptocracy run like a mafia state we would have some sympathy, but they aren't so we don't. If they want to participate in global leadership/trade they should spend more time trying to work productively with the rest of the group and less time pissing in everyone else's face.
  - cosmolev 6y ago
    "pissing in everyone else's face" - isn't it what US is doing?
    - SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
      Russia is trying too much, way above it head. It is a developing country, yet it is acting as if it is a strong power. It is both annoying and pathetic. At least US has earned its right to piss in everyone else's faces.
      - cosmolev 6y ago
        "Russia is trying too much, way above it head. It is a developing country, yet it is acting as if it is a strong power." - I totally agree with you on this. I'd like to see stronger Russia, which is unfortunately hardly possible under the current kleptocratic regime.
      - dvlat 6y ago
        I’ll not comment on the first part. However, it’s sad to think that somebody can “earn” right to piss in everyone else’s face. Fwiw, I don’t believe that this is what happening, noone is happy about counterproductive behavior, regardless which country it comes from (the US, Russia, China, Turkey, etc). However, in some cases there is not much you can do about it. Sigh, I wish all nations listed above could work together toward making this world a better place.
    - michaelcampbell 6y ago
      Define: "whataboutism"
- microcolonel 6y ago
  > ...relegated to third world when it comes to participating in global leadership/trade. Because when given more civilized tools, they nonetheless alienate the world. They could have annexed Crimea peacefully, at least the part that they actually needed, but chose instead to engage in a semi-hot war while sending mixed signals with the referendum. Then President Obama completely shut the door on them, which did not have the effect of changing their behaviour; this in Russia after all. What the Obama Administration did in response to the annexation of Crimea was close off most avenues of reconciliation; and the subsequent propaganda about President Trump has kept those avenues closed.
  - maga20yes 6y ago
    I just say that China or India (to put two bulky examples) have terrible civil rights AND environmental protection history and yet they aren't featured under a negative light on a daily basis in media.
    - dontcarethrow2 6y ago
      Remnants of the Cold Wash, you have a good 2 generations KNOWing Red=Bad. These are results to be noted for our current/future Wash.
    - mantas 6y ago
      Huh? China is seen kinda negative in press... India is usually shown as shithole country too.
      - microcolonel 6y ago
        Or at least a country with extreme material inequity; there are people in India who are recognizably wealthy by global standards, and there are also people who can't afford to poop on a toilet.
  - konart 6y ago
    > They could have annexed Crimea peacefully Crimea was annexed peacefully.
- manojlds 6y ago
  Because they have military legacy of a superpower and everything else of a authoritarian developing country?
- tokai 6y ago
  >relegated to third world Surely Russia is second world if we are to use the three-world model.
  - Paianni 6y ago
    In the context of the current geopolitical climate, Russia would be third-world? Second-world would be for "communist" countries like the PRC.
    - tokai 6y ago
      no
- rsynnott 6y ago
  > but it's relegated to third world when it comes to participating in global leadership/trade. I assume you're referring to being kicked out of the G7, trade sanctions, etc? They should perhaps consider not invading places all the time, sending people to view the wonderful Salisbury Cathedral, etc. Like, Russia's exclusion isn't something that just happened; there was massive provocation. EDIT: Ah, a timely news article. As a general rule, G7 nations aren't doing THIS: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > They should perhaps consider not invading places all the time We're kicking the US out of G7 next, then? Oh wait ... it's okay when we do it, right?
    - michaelcampbell 6y ago
      What has the US invaded and taken as part of its own country?
      - luckylion 6y ago
        You'll notice that the comment I replied to complained about invasions, not annexations. Something the US does more regularly than electing a new president. Other than that, the US has been annexing little recently, but in history quite a bit.
      - hchz 6y ago
        Puerto Rico Texas (invaded by Americans and annexed) Guam Hawaii (USMC supported coup by European and American businessmen)
        artofgo 6y ago
        Technically, Puerto Rico and Guam were already invaded by Spain before it was handed over to the US in 1898. With Texas, I believe it won its war of independence against Mexico and later annexed by the US (1835). If you're going to go back that far they US "invasions" is probably fairly tame compared to other countries of that time period.
- kryptiskt 6y ago
  It's hard to be friends with someone who lies in your face all the time, even when they're caught red-handed.
- adrr 6y ago
  Don't invade other countries which is why they got kicked out of G8. They also need to stop poisoning people in other countries and shooting down civilian aircraft.
itronitron 6y ago
Further reading >> https://www.worldcat.org/title/greenpeace-book-of-the-nuclear-age-the-hidden-history-the-human-cost/ https://www.worldcat.org/title/greenpeace-book-of-the-nuclea...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Shivetya 6y ago
While a bit sensationalist it obviously poses a real problem and fortunately its being acknowledged and acted upon. however google can bring up the stuff of nightmares of what we have dumped into the oceans, worse this of course only what we know of. many countries have dumped stuff without any record keeping. Chemical Weapons and other munitions https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/decaying-weapons-world-war-II-threaten-waters-worldwide-180961046/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/decaying-weapo... https://www.nonproliferation.org/chemical-weapon-munitions-dumped-at-sea/ https://www.nonproliferation.org/chemical-weapon-munitions-d... Gulf of Mexico https://www.jacksonville.com/zz/news/20190719/what-lies-beneath-gulf-likely-holds-tons-of-discarded-military-munitions https://www.jacksonville.com/zz/news/20190719/what-lies-bene... Low level radioactive wastes http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/jones-a2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/jones-a2/
- hpph 6y ago
  there is a documentary on youtube about oil leaking out of sunk WWII ships. Some of those ships are really close to shores and tourist destinations. Fun time.
  - mchem 6y ago
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OP0U62oiBlM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OP0U62oiBlM - The DW documentary on the matter. A fascinating watch. It is a shame that the economics do not play out in such a way that recovery and resale is feasible. Sadly, I do not expect most governments to be as proactive as Norway’s on the matter. The documentary suggests that even covering a wreck with sand as a preventative measure costs 10s of millions of €s. Surely an opportunity for a lower cost solution exists here?
opwieurposiu 6y ago
American subs use Highly enriched 90%+ uranium metal fuel rods, as opposed to power plants which use low enriched uranium oxide. They use this kind of fuel so they can fit enough in the reactor for twenty plus years of power. Does anyone know what kind of fuel russian subs use?

57 points by LandR 6y ago

The headline from the BBC is a bit sensationalist I think, but that's what they have. Interesting article about retrieving the submarines though.

aaron695 6y ago
I was going to say Chernobyl created a huge wilderness park, these just sit there doing nothing. But if they do pull then up and have an accident the article claims fishing might have to stop for a while, so perhaps they are as good? I'm dubious on the claims though. Either way, the tech and recovery is the interesting bit.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Fishing might stop in the area due to adverse publicity, but not because of the radiation. Chernobyl fallout fell and was concentrated on the surface of the earth, a two-dimensional plane. Oceans are three-dimensional. Even a chernobyl-magnitude radiation event will be quickly diluted into the hundreds of cubic-kilometers of water that passes over every point in the ocean daily. It is hard to wrap one's head around exactly how big, how literally massive, oceans are.

maga20yes 6y ago

Russia is required to behave under first world standards when it comes to their commitments, but it's relegated to third world when it comes to participating in global leadership/trade.

evgen 6y ago
Maybe if they were not such a complete kleptocracy run like a mafia state we would have some sympathy, but they aren't so we don't. If they want to participate in global leadership/trade they should spend more time trying to work productively with the rest of the group and less time pissing in everyone else's face.
- cosmolev 6y ago
  "pissing in everyone else's face" - isn't it what US is doing?
  - SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
    Russia is trying too much, way above it head. It is a developing country, yet it is acting as if it is a strong power. It is both annoying and pathetic. At least US has earned its right to piss in everyone else's faces.
    - cosmolev 6y ago
      "Russia is trying too much, way above it head. It is a developing country, yet it is acting as if it is a strong power." - I totally agree with you on this. I'd like to see stronger Russia, which is unfortunately hardly possible under the current kleptocratic regime.
    - dvlat 6y ago
      I’ll not comment on the first part. However, it’s sad to think that somebody can “earn” right to piss in everyone else’s face. Fwiw, I don’t believe that this is what happening, noone is happy about counterproductive behavior, regardless which country it comes from (the US, Russia, China, Turkey, etc). However, in some cases there is not much you can do about it. Sigh, I wish all nations listed above could work together toward making this world a better place.
  - michaelcampbell 6y ago
    Define: "whataboutism"
microcolonel 6y ago
> ...relegated to third world when it comes to participating in global leadership/trade. Because when given more civilized tools, they nonetheless alienate the world. They could have annexed Crimea peacefully, at least the part that they actually needed, but chose instead to engage in a semi-hot war while sending mixed signals with the referendum. Then President Obama completely shut the door on them, which did not have the effect of changing their behaviour; this in Russia after all. What the Obama Administration did in response to the annexation of Crimea was close off most avenues of reconciliation; and the subsequent propaganda about President Trump has kept those avenues closed.
- maga20yes 6y ago
  I just say that China or India (to put two bulky examples) have terrible civil rights AND environmental protection history and yet they aren't featured under a negative light on a daily basis in media.
  - dontcarethrow2 6y ago
    Remnants of the Cold Wash, you have a good 2 generations KNOWing Red=Bad. These are results to be noted for our current/future Wash.
  - mantas 6y ago
    Huh? China is seen kinda negative in press... India is usually shown as shithole country too.
    - microcolonel 6y ago
      Or at least a country with extreme material inequity; there are people in India who are recognizably wealthy by global standards, and there are also people who can't afford to poop on a toilet.
- konart 6y ago
  > They could have annexed Crimea peacefully Crimea was annexed peacefully.
manojlds 6y ago
Because they have military legacy of a superpower and everything else of a authoritarian developing country?
tokai 6y ago
>relegated to third world Surely Russia is second world if we are to use the three-world model.
- Paianni 6y ago
  In the context of the current geopolitical climate, Russia would be third-world? Second-world would be for "communist" countries like the PRC.
  - tokai 6y ago
    no
rsynnott 6y ago
> but it's relegated to third world when it comes to participating in global leadership/trade. I assume you're referring to being kicked out of the G7, trade sanctions, etc? They should perhaps consider not invading places all the time, sending people to view the wonderful Salisbury Cathedral, etc. Like, Russia's exclusion isn't something that just happened; there was massive provocation. EDIT: Ah, a timely news article. As a general rule, G7 nations aren't doing THIS: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880
- luckylion 6y ago
  > They should perhaps consider not invading places all the time We're kicking the US out of G7 next, then? Oh wait ... it's okay when we do it, right?
  - michaelcampbell 6y ago
    What has the US invaded and taken as part of its own country?
    - luckylion 6y ago
      You'll notice that the comment I replied to complained about invasions, not annexations. Something the US does more regularly than electing a new president. Other than that, the US has been annexing little recently, but in history quite a bit.
    - hchz 6y ago
      Puerto Rico Texas (invaded by Americans and annexed) Guam Hawaii (USMC supported coup by European and American businessmen)
      - artofgo 6y ago
        Technically, Puerto Rico and Guam were already invaded by Spain before it was handed over to the US in 1898. With Texas, I believe it won its war of independence against Mexico and later annexed by the US (1835). If you're going to go back that far they US "invasions" is probably fairly tame compared to other countries of that time period.
kryptiskt 6y ago
It's hard to be friends with someone who lies in your face all the time, even when they're caught red-handed.
adrr 6y ago
Don't invade other countries which is why they got kicked out of G8. They also need to stop poisoning people in other countries and shooting down civilian aircraft.

itronitron 6y ago

Further reading >> https://www.worldcat.org/title/greenpeace-book-of-the-nuclear-age-the-hidden-history-the-human-cost/ https://www.worldcat.org/title/greenpeace-book-of-the-nuclea...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Shivetya 6y ago

While a bit sensationalist it obviously poses a real problem and fortunately its being acknowledged and acted upon. however google can bring up the stuff of nightmares of what we have dumped into the oceans, worse this of course only what we know of. many countries have dumped stuff without any record keeping. Chemical Weapons and other munitions https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/decaying-weapons-world-war-II-threaten-waters-worldwide-180961046/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/decaying-weapo... https://www.nonproliferation.org/chemical-weapon-munitions-dumped-at-sea/ https://www.nonproliferation.org/chemical-weapon-munitions-d... Gulf of Mexico https://www.jacksonville.com/zz/news/20190719/what-lies-beneath-gulf-likely-holds-tons-of-discarded-military-munitions https://www.jacksonville.com/zz/news/20190719/what-lies-bene... Low level radioactive wastes http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/jones-a2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/jones-a2/

hpph 6y ago
there is a documentary on youtube about oil leaking out of sunk WWII ships. Some of those ships are really close to shores and tourist destinations. Fun time.
- mchem 6y ago
  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OP0U62oiBlM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OP0U62oiBlM - The DW documentary on the matter. A fascinating watch. It is a shame that the economics do not play out in such a way that recovery and resale is feasible. Sadly, I do not expect most governments to be as proactive as Norway’s on the matter. The documentary suggests that even covering a wreck with sand as a preventative measure costs 10s of millions of €s. Surely an opportunity for a lower cost solution exists here?

opwieurposiu 6y ago

American subs use Highly enriched 90%+ uranium metal fuel rods, as opposed to power plants which use low enriched uranium oxide. They use this kind of fuel so they can fit enough in the reactor for twenty plus years of power. Does anyone know what kind of fuel russian subs use?