6 ms·

Twin Lessons: Have More Kids. Pay Less Attention to Them.

27 points by cwan 16y ago

nostrademons 16y ago
I remember reading Pinker's The Blank Slate in college and being struck by how little parents mattered. The numbers were that roughly 40-50% of the variance in adult outcomes was due to genetics, 0-10% was due to parenting, and about 50% was due to peer groups. Of course, one could argue that parents indirectly choose their kids' peer groups. So maybe the lesson is to lighten up on the little battles of parenting, but pay very careful attention to the neighborhood you live in, the schools your kids go to, and the activities they partake in. And make enough money to have options for all of those.
- jerf 16y ago
  I'm not sure how to reconcile the idea with reality, though. Is it possible that part of the reason that the twins turn out so identical is that despite all the other differences, two middle-class upbringings are pretty much indistinguishable in the ways that actually matter, whatever they may be? What if we take triplets, put one in the worst inner city, one in middle-class, and one in a very rich household. Will they still turn out nearly identical? If yes, then doesn't that ultimately imply that being in the worst inner city has nearly no effect on how you turn out? But that seems to contradict reality, unless being in the inner city is genetic, which seems fairly unlikely at this point. I mean these as thought-provoking questions. I don't have answers. I don't question the results of the studies, which are very well grounded and as I understand it well-repeated, but on the other hand it does not seem as obvious to me as the author here how to map them back to reality.
  - tseabrooks 16y ago
    I'm not trying to troll... I don't see how it, "seems fairly unlikely at this point" that being in the 'inner city' isn't due to some genetic issues. I'm not saying it is genetic I just don't think much research has really attacked the problem thoroughly enough, due to the somewhat taboo nature of the statement, to make that distinction. Heck, we as a culture (U.S.) are still really uncomfortable considering that there may be genetic differences that cause certain population groups to outperform at different tasks. For example Lawrence Summer's comments on girls in Science and math, research into African runners, etc. I don't really have a personal opinion on issues like these but I think the questions are worth asking.
    - Groxx 16y ago
      I think it was more of a remark that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary (that I'm aware of), it seems unlikely that your genetics determine your physical location, especially with such precision (a couple miles off and you may land in the rich area of town). Is it possible that they do? Sure, animals migrate. We may be genetically drawn to upper / lower classes, somehow. But I, too, find this generally unlikely. But I'm admittedly a self-determinism-optimist (or whatever it's called. Humanist?)
      - Retric 16y ago
        DNA links to intelligence. Intelligence links to income. Income links to location. Picking numbers from thin air (80% of your location is income, 20% of your income is Intelligence, and 50% of your intelligence is DNA.) You would get a reasonable but weak DNA > location link.
        petervandijck 16y ago
        Social class links to income much more than intelligence. Believe me, you're quite likely to end up in a similar socio-economic class as your parents. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-450558/Having-high-IQ-does-mean-rich-study-finds.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-450558/Having-high-I... So where you live (social class of your parents) matters much more in your future income than your intelligence.
  - greendestiny 16y ago
    Maybe we just aren't measuring the right things. I often find myself wondering when I read about happiness studies (and generally the steady level there of) if we just can't and don't want to really measure a life. I wonder if there are factors in which you could see a big difference due to parenting - not that in itself that would prove those measures more important. Maybe if you asked other people to rate someones life.
  - nostrademons 16y ago
    Isn't this exactly what some of those twin studies have done? Looked at pairs of identical twins where one was adopted into a family of wildly different socioeconomic status? Anyway, the article (and the studies) did say "Over the long term", as in leading into adulthood. While I'd have trouble believing that being raised in a bad inner city ghetto has no effect on your adulthood, I wouldn't have trouble believing that many intelligent, hard-working kids (the ones who don't get shot, at least) manage to escape the ghetto. I'm reminded of something I've often heard about homeless people. People can end up homeless for all sorts of reasons, most of them not their fault. But the ones who stay homeless are almost invariably mentally ill. If you have the coping skills of a normal human being, homelessness is a rather unpleasant few months that you can eventually put behind you. But if you don't have those coping skills, that's when it becomes chronic and you get stuck on the streets. Also the studies did say only 40-50% of the variation was attributed to genetics. The other 50% is peer group. People generally have a tough time going friendless, yet that's often what's required to escape a bad situation.
    - jerf 16y ago
      "Isn't this exactly what some of those twin studies have done? Looked at pairs of identical twins where one was adopted into a family of wildly different socioeconomic status?" I know there is a non-zero number of such studies, but I don't know how many there are vs. relatively similar socioeconomic situations, nor do I immediately know where to go to answer that question in any reasonable period of time. Info welcomed.
- niels_olson 16y ago
  lesson: if you want to influence your kids, treat them as peers.
noonespecial 16y ago
It may be true that my parents didn't have all that much to say about who I was going to be as an adult, but the made a huge difference by providing me with an endless stream of (what to them at the time must have been ridiculously expensive) computer gear, books and electronics kits. They might not have changed my final destination, but they certainly helped me get started faster.
- tseabrooks 16y ago
  Maybe parents don't change the direction of the vector but rather they can influence the magnitude of the vector?
  - orijing 16y ago
    I think that's exactly what he was wondering.
nl 16y ago
It's interesting that he noted a number of times how his wife disagreed with him. I wonder how child-rearing responsibilities were shared? The cynic in me sees a working husband coming home tired to a exhausted wife who has been at home looking after twins all day, and then justifies his lack of interest in getting the kids out of her way as a premeditated parenting strategy rather than exhaustion/laziness. It's true that he says Someone had to feed our infant twins in the middle of the night, and that someone was me. - but as someone who did work part time to take care of my kid I'm very much aware that nigh feeds are very far from the hardest thing to do.

27 points by cwan 16y ago

I remember reading Pinker's The Blank Slate in college and being struck by how little parents mattered. The numbers were that roughly 40-50% of the variance in adult outcomes was due to genetics, 0-10% was due to parenting, and about 50% was due to peer groups. Of course, one could argue that parents indirectly choose their kids' peer groups. So maybe the lesson is to lighten up on the little battles of parenting, but pay very careful attention to the neighborhood you live in, the schools your kids go to, and the activities they partake in. And make enough money to have options for all of those.

jerf 16y ago
I'm not sure how to reconcile the idea with reality, though. Is it possible that part of the reason that the twins turn out so identical is that despite all the other differences, two middle-class upbringings are pretty much indistinguishable in the ways that actually matter, whatever they may be? What if we take triplets, put one in the worst inner city, one in middle-class, and one in a very rich household. Will they still turn out nearly identical? If yes, then doesn't that ultimately imply that being in the worst inner city has nearly no effect on how you turn out? But that seems to contradict reality, unless being in the inner city is genetic, which seems fairly unlikely at this point. I mean these as thought-provoking questions. I don't have answers. I don't question the results of the studies, which are very well grounded and as I understand it well-repeated, but on the other hand it does not seem as obvious to me as the author here how to map them back to reality.
- tseabrooks 16y ago
  I'm not trying to troll... I don't see how it, "seems fairly unlikely at this point" that being in the 'inner city' isn't due to some genetic issues. I'm not saying it is genetic I just don't think much research has really attacked the problem thoroughly enough, due to the somewhat taboo nature of the statement, to make that distinction. Heck, we as a culture (U.S.) are still really uncomfortable considering that there may be genetic differences that cause certain population groups to outperform at different tasks. For example Lawrence Summer's comments on girls in Science and math, research into African runners, etc. I don't really have a personal opinion on issues like these but I think the questions are worth asking.
  - Groxx 16y ago
    I think it was more of a remark that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary (that I'm aware of), it seems unlikely that your genetics determine your physical location, especially with such precision (a couple miles off and you may land in the rich area of town). Is it possible that they do? Sure, animals migrate. We may be genetically drawn to upper / lower classes, somehow. But I, too, find this generally unlikely. But I'm admittedly a self-determinism-optimist (or whatever it's called. Humanist?)
    - Retric 16y ago
      DNA links to intelligence. Intelligence links to income. Income links to location. Picking numbers from thin air (80% of your location is income, 20% of your income is Intelligence, and 50% of your intelligence is DNA.) You would get a reasonable but weak DNA > location link.
      - petervandijck 16y ago
        Social class links to income much more than intelligence. Believe me, you're quite likely to end up in a similar socio-economic class as your parents. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-450558/Having-high-IQ-does-mean-rich-study-finds.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-450558/Having-high-I... So where you live (social class of your parents) matters much more in your future income than your intelligence.
- greendestiny 16y ago
  Maybe we just aren't measuring the right things. I often find myself wondering when I read about happiness studies (and generally the steady level there of) if we just can't and don't want to really measure a life. I wonder if there are factors in which you could see a big difference due to parenting - not that in itself that would prove those measures more important. Maybe if you asked other people to rate someones life.
- nostrademons 16y ago
  Isn't this exactly what some of those twin studies have done? Looked at pairs of identical twins where one was adopted into a family of wildly different socioeconomic status? Anyway, the article (and the studies) did say "Over the long term", as in leading into adulthood. While I'd have trouble believing that being raised in a bad inner city ghetto has no effect on your adulthood, I wouldn't have trouble believing that many intelligent, hard-working kids (the ones who don't get shot, at least) manage to escape the ghetto. I'm reminded of something I've often heard about homeless people. People can end up homeless for all sorts of reasons, most of them not their fault. But the ones who stay homeless are almost invariably mentally ill. If you have the coping skills of a normal human being, homelessness is a rather unpleasant few months that you can eventually put behind you. But if you don't have those coping skills, that's when it becomes chronic and you get stuck on the streets. Also the studies did say only 40-50% of the variation was attributed to genetics. The other 50% is peer group. People generally have a tough time going friendless, yet that's often what's required to escape a bad situation.
  - jerf 16y ago
    "Isn't this exactly what some of those twin studies have done? Looked at pairs of identical twins where one was adopted into a family of wildly different socioeconomic status?" I know there is a non-zero number of such studies, but I don't know how many there are vs. relatively similar socioeconomic situations, nor do I immediately know where to go to answer that question in any reasonable period of time. Info welcomed.
niels_olson 16y ago
lesson: if you want to influence your kids, treat them as peers.

noonespecial 16y ago

It may be true that my parents didn't have all that much to say about who I was going to be as an adult, but the made a huge difference by providing me with an endless stream of (what to them at the time must have been ridiculously expensive) computer gear, books and electronics kits. They might not have changed my final destination, but they certainly helped me get started faster.

tseabrooks 16y ago
Maybe parents don't change the direction of the vector but rather they can influence the magnitude of the vector?
- orijing 16y ago
  I think that's exactly what he was wondering.

nl 16y ago

It's interesting that he noted a number of times how his wife disagreed with him. I wonder how child-rearing responsibilities were shared? The cynic in me sees a working husband coming home tired to a exhausted wife who has been at home looking after twins all day, and then justifies his lack of interest in getting the kids out of her way as a premeditated parenting strategy rather than exhaustion/laziness. It's true that he says Someone had to feed our infant twins in the middle of the night, and that someone was me. - but as someone who did work part time to take care of my kid I'm very much aware that nigh feeds are very far from the hardest thing to do.