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I think the race is not to “Save” pidgins and creole languages but instead to fully document them. These languages represent a unique natural experiment that wi

I think the race is not to “Save” pidgins and creole languages but instead to fully document them. These languages represent a unique natural experiment that will probably not occur again. Studying them provides insight into how the language module of the mind works.

yorwba 6y ago
Documenting a language is how you "save" it. When a language is dying out, that means people are no longer learning it, which implies that native speakers are not using it to communicate with their children. One reason for people to use a different language with their children is to give them a headstart in school, where another language is used for instruction, and to avoid the stigma that comes with speaking a less prestigious language. If their own language is closely related to the prestige language of the region (very likely in case of a contact language) it's easy to compare the two, notice that they're different and conclude that the prestige language is "correct" while anything different from it is "wrong". That can lead to extreme social pressure. If you've ever made an embarrassing mispronunciation, you'll know the feeling, but now imagine everything you say is "incorrect". Language documentation doesn't completely change the social environment, but can indirectly enhance the language's prestige, e.g. by devising a writing system that then gets adopted in education and media and by raising awareness that "different" doesn't necessarily mean "wrong". It also means that children who grew up without learning their parent's mother tongues but want to learn them later in life can use the material collected as part of language documentation for studying.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  We were lucky, in the silver lining sense, to have had expansionist neighbours. In the nineteenth century, the french said we didn't speak "real" french. In the twentieth, both the germans and the italians said we didn't speak "real" german or "real" italian. In response (our dialects having had an army) where before those countries had been taken as arbitrating the prestige forms of their languages, there's been a revival of local dialect. We don't have an "RP": politicians in 2020 will of course use a prestige register in speech, but don't bother to hide their dialects. (Written language has an orthography, taught in school. But most people I know treat SMS/chat as an oral, not literate, form. In german this results in idiosyncratic spelling, in french, "langage SMS")
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - tasogare 6y ago
    You are speaking of Swiss right? Too bad in France there was a policy of linguistics cleansing which effectively destroyed dialects and non-French languages as fast as in two generations. Of course there are other factors as well, like marriages in-between people of different regions.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      Oui. Cependant, il y a: http://www.petitnicolas.com/collection/albums#collection-langues-de-france http://www.petitnicolas.com/collection/albums#collection-lan... PS. 3 bises > 2 bises ... but on the other hand, if it weren't for you all, we wouldn't have verlan :-) PPS. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/d4/b0/6ed4b0c84ac892dc5b9d01608ec989d5.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/d4/b0/6ed4b0c84ac892dc5b9d...
sradman 6y ago
Yesterday's Lexicon Valley podcast by John McWhorter [1] The Incredible Story of the Traveling Creole is very timely: > Enslaved people developed a hybrid language that sailed from Africa to the Caribbean and—unbelievably—back again. [1] https://slate.com/podcasts/lexicon-valley/2020/09/the-english-based-creole-of-enslaved-africans https://slate.com/podcasts/lexicon-valley/2020/09/the-englis...

yorwba 6y ago

Documenting a language is how you "save" it. When a language is dying out, that means people are no longer learning it, which implies that native speakers are not using it to communicate with their children. One reason for people to use a different language with their children is to give them a headstart in school, where another language is used for instruction, and to avoid the stigma that comes with speaking a less prestigious language. If their own language is closely related to the prestige language of the region (very likely in case of a contact language) it's easy to compare the two, notice that they're different and conclude that the prestige language is "correct" while anything different from it is "wrong". That can lead to extreme social pressure. If you've ever made an embarrassing mispronunciation, you'll know the feeling, but now imagine everything you say is "incorrect". Language documentation doesn't completely change the social environment, but can indirectly enhance the language's prestige, e.g. by devising a writing system that then gets adopted in education and media and by raising awareness that "different" doesn't necessarily mean "wrong". It also means that children who grew up without learning their parent's mother tongues but want to learn them later in life can use the material collected as part of language documentation for studying.

082349872349872 6y ago
We were lucky, in the silver lining sense, to have had expansionist neighbours. In the nineteenth century, the french said we didn't speak "real" french. In the twentieth, both the germans and the italians said we didn't speak "real" german or "real" italian. In response (our dialects having had an army) where before those countries had been taken as arbitrating the prestige forms of their languages, there's been a revival of local dialect. We don't have an "RP": politicians in 2020 will of course use a prestige register in speech, but don't bother to hide their dialects. (Written language has an orthography, taught in school. But most people I know treat SMS/chat as an oral, not literate, form. In german this results in idiosyncratic spelling, in french, "langage SMS")
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tasogare 6y ago
  You are speaking of Swiss right? Too bad in France there was a policy of linguistics cleansing which effectively destroyed dialects and non-French languages as fast as in two generations. Of course there are other factors as well, like marriages in-between people of different regions.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Oui. Cependant, il y a: http://www.petitnicolas.com/collection/albums#collection-langues-de-france http://www.petitnicolas.com/collection/albums#collection-lan... PS. 3 bises > 2 bises ... but on the other hand, if it weren't for you all, we wouldn't have verlan :-) PPS. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/d4/b0/6ed4b0c84ac892dc5b9d01608ec989d5.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/d4/b0/6ed4b0c84ac892dc5b9d...

sradman 6y ago

Yesterday's Lexicon Valley podcast by John McWhorter [1] The Incredible Story of the Traveling Creole is very timely: > Enslaved people developed a hybrid language that sailed from Africa to the Caribbean and—unbelievably—back again. [1] https://slate.com/podcasts/lexicon-valley/2020/09/the-english-based-creole-of-enslaved-africans https://slate.com/podcasts/lexicon-valley/2020/09/the-englis...