5 ms·

Honestly the whole movement is leaderless, aimless, and senseless. Right off the bat making it a race issue is divisive and misleading - when the statistics sh

by eloff 6y ago

Honestly the whole movement is leaderless, aimless, and senseless. Right off the bat making it a race issue is divisive and misleading - when the statistics show people of color are no more likely than anyone else to be a victim of police violence, when considering the number of police interactions. Blacks and latinos commit more crimes. That's the uncomfortable truth. Then they have no serious or well thought out plan to improve things - so what do they hope to gain from protesting? Abolish the police is pure nonsense. Awareness of the issue is the best they can hope for.

filoeleven 6y ago
You didn’t address anything I said, so I’ll refrain from rebutting your statistics.
sjtindell 6y ago
Per your statement about race; look into that statistic you listed more, there are good explanations. Imagine this chain - the system is rigged in deep ways against a young man of color. He probably grows up in a broken home, a poor neighborhood, with low access to schooling or opportunity. As a result, he is driven to commit crime. So police patrol his neighborhood more, so they learn to associate his kind of people with crime, so he has more police interactions. And then that statistic lands on your news feed. Do you think the system is more fair for all people regardless of skin color? Or that crime has little relation to poverty? Or that people of color are inherently more likely to commit crime whether by genetics or culture? Then you won’t be able to follow that chain. There are a lot of interacting systems. Not questioning as an attack, just pointing out that the logic makes lots of assumptions. Consider the problems with our algorithm for determining recidivism rates. The data shows people of color return to crime more when released. So the algorithm assigns them higher jail time before parole, which means more time out of society and among criminals, which leads to more crime when released! That statistic, “people of color commit more crime” is a self-fulfilling prophecy or recursion of some sort, it’s harmful unless we’re using it to determine a “why” that isn’t just “because of their skin color or culture”.
- jlawson 6y ago
  If that's true, your complaint isn't with them police at all, but with the fact that "the system is rigged in deep ways against a young man of color". To justify these protests, you would have to make the case that it's police conduct that causes black people to commit so many more crimes. But even in your post here, you're pointing to sentencing, not policing. (Also worth noting that this doesn't explain differentials in first offense rates at all).
  - sjtindell 6y ago
    I’m merely talking about one statistic the poster stated. Not protests. I also only brought up sentencing to demonstrate the point that these statistics themselves lead to policies and processes that in turn feed the statistics.
- eloff 6y ago
  Well I hope you didn't think I was implying that black people are inherently more prone to being criminals from birth. Of course it's dominated by poverty and a lack of good options for young black men especially. The US is actually the developed country where the American dream is most dream-like. Social mobility in the US is behind almost all the other developed nations. This is a real societal problem that needs to be addressed. But all the solutions are "socialist" and deeply unpopular in the US. However, that there's a good reason for it doesn't change the statistics. Police violence against black people seems to be a non issue by the numbers. Police violence in general is an issue, making it racial is counterproductive. The protest would be better focused on things that are real, like poverty, or poor social mobility. And instead of people just aimlessly letting off steam, it should have leadership and clear goals that can actually be implemented - then maybe there's a chance they could get congress to listen to them. Right now they're accomplishing nothing and this whole movement will fade away without any real change just like the Occupy Wall Street movement.
  - adamsea 6y ago
    > Of course it's dominated by poverty and a lack of good options for young black men ... In the United States poverty in Black communities is a consequence of systemic racism, which continues to this day. W/the “drug war” examples further below, there’s a direct link between systemic racism and police behavior in black communities. Which admittedly cannot be blamed entirely on the police. But they certainly don’t help. Look at redlining in the 50s: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/371439/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article... Or the response to the opioid epidemic - prevalent in white communities - as opposed to how they responded to the crack/cocaine epidemic (prevalent in black communities) in the 80s. A medical response for white people - a criminal response for black people. https://petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/resources/article/criminal-justice-or-public-health-crack-cocaine-opioid-media-comparison https://petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/resources/article/crimina... Or the sentencing disparities between crack (prevalently used in poorer black communities) vs cocaine use/dealing. https://www.aclu.org/other/cracks-system-20-years-unjust-federal-crack-cocaine-law https://www.aclu.org/other/cracks-system-20-years-unjust-fed...
adamsea 6y ago
How many whites people get knees on their necks and choked to death on video?

by eloff 6y ago

filoeleven 6y ago

You didn’t address anything I said, so I’ll refrain from rebutting your statistics.

sjtindell 6y ago

Per your statement about race; look into that statistic you listed more, there are good explanations. Imagine this chain - the system is rigged in deep ways against a young man of color. He probably grows up in a broken home, a poor neighborhood, with low access to schooling or opportunity. As a result, he is driven to commit crime. So police patrol his neighborhood more, so they learn to associate his kind of people with crime, so he has more police interactions. And then that statistic lands on your news feed. Do you think the system is more fair for all people regardless of skin color? Or that crime has little relation to poverty? Or that people of color are inherently more likely to commit crime whether by genetics or culture? Then you won’t be able to follow that chain. There are a lot of interacting systems. Not questioning as an attack, just pointing out that the logic makes lots of assumptions. Consider the problems with our algorithm for determining recidivism rates. The data shows people of color return to crime more when released. So the algorithm assigns them higher jail time before parole, which means more time out of society and among criminals, which leads to more crime when released! That statistic, “people of color commit more crime” is a self-fulfilling prophecy or recursion of some sort, it’s harmful unless we’re using it to determine a “why” that isn’t just “because of their skin color or culture”.

jlawson 6y ago
If that's true, your complaint isn't with them police at all, but with the fact that "the system is rigged in deep ways against a young man of color". To justify these protests, you would have to make the case that it's police conduct that causes black people to commit so many more crimes. But even in your post here, you're pointing to sentencing, not policing. (Also worth noting that this doesn't explain differentials in first offense rates at all).
- sjtindell 6y ago
  I’m merely talking about one statistic the poster stated. Not protests. I also only brought up sentencing to demonstrate the point that these statistics themselves lead to policies and processes that in turn feed the statistics.
eloff 6y ago
Well I hope you didn't think I was implying that black people are inherently more prone to being criminals from birth. Of course it's dominated by poverty and a lack of good options for young black men especially. The US is actually the developed country where the American dream is most dream-like. Social mobility in the US is behind almost all the other developed nations. This is a real societal problem that needs to be addressed. But all the solutions are "socialist" and deeply unpopular in the US. However, that there's a good reason for it doesn't change the statistics. Police violence against black people seems to be a non issue by the numbers. Police violence in general is an issue, making it racial is counterproductive. The protest would be better focused on things that are real, like poverty, or poor social mobility. And instead of people just aimlessly letting off steam, it should have leadership and clear goals that can actually be implemented - then maybe there's a chance they could get congress to listen to them. Right now they're accomplishing nothing and this whole movement will fade away without any real change just like the Occupy Wall Street movement.
- adamsea 6y ago
  > Of course it's dominated by poverty and a lack of good options for young black men ... In the United States poverty in Black communities is a consequence of systemic racism, which continues to this day. W/the “drug war” examples further below, there’s a direct link between systemic racism and police behavior in black communities. Which admittedly cannot be blamed entirely on the police. But they certainly don’t help. Look at redlining in the 50s: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/371439/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article... Or the response to the opioid epidemic - prevalent in white communities - as opposed to how they responded to the crack/cocaine epidemic (prevalent in black communities) in the 80s. A medical response for white people - a criminal response for black people. https://petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/resources/article/criminal-justice-or-public-health-crack-cocaine-opioid-media-comparison https://petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/resources/article/crimina... Or the sentencing disparities between crack (prevalently used in poorer black communities) vs cocaine use/dealing. https://www.aclu.org/other/cracks-system-20-years-unjust-federal-crack-cocaine-law https://www.aclu.org/other/cracks-system-20-years-unjust-fed...

adamsea 6y ago

How many whites people get knees on their necks and choked to death on video?