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You're talking about union education as if it's equivalent to mathematics or something, like there is an absolute truth to be learned. Surely even the most pro-

by cactus2093 6y ago

You're talking about union education as if it's equivalent to mathematics or something, like there is an absolute truth to be learned. Surely even the most pro-union people would acknowledge that not every implementation of a union is equivalent? And that some have caused harm? I would say I'm union agnostic, I'm not against them but I have about the same amount of faith that a union will improve things in a given situation as that the government will. Both are supposed to be a representation of the people, run by the people, and both are often too bogged down by bureaucracy and power seeking to actually do anything constructive. Sure there are great historical examples of unions accomplishing great things, just are there are great historical examples of governments passing landmark laws, but neither of those guarantees that these institutions will do the right thing in any future scenario. And to the extent that I am going to put trust in one of these institutions, I'd rather choose the government. I'd rather see, for instance, healthcare given as a right to every citizen, than healthcare given to employees in just one industry. And in fact, unions have been some of the strongest opponents of medicare for all initiatives in the US in recent years. They've already negotiated good healthcare benefits for their members and they don't want everyone else who's not a member to get it too. This kind of "us vs them" incentive system doesn't appeal to me. And more fundamentally, I strongly believe that a lot of basic things (again, like healthcare, or disability insurance, or the ability to invest in a retirement account) should be much less coupled to employment than they are today, and unions are a force in the opposite direction.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
The government isn’t a good comparison. Unions hold no illusions about acting in the interests of the general public. Their express purpose is to protect the members of the union, even if that comes at the expense of the general public. Police unions defending corrupt police and ensuring they can collect expensive public-funded pensions after blatant misconduct against the public is a prime example.
- Kalium 6y ago
  I routinely see people postulate that unions act primarily in the interests of the general public. Unions may not claim that, but at least some of their supporters do.
- mf_tomb 6y ago
  Most unions try to act in solidarity with labor in general, through organizations like the IWW and the AFL-CIO. Police unions aren't labor unions, as the role of police in society is to enforce the current capital distribution. This is counter to the goals of the rest of the labor movement, and there's currently a push to boot the IUPA from the AFL-CIO.
notJim 6y ago
> You're talking about union education as if it's equivalent to mathematics or something, like there is an absolute truth to be learned. Surely even the most pro-union people would acknowledge that not every implementation of a union is equivalent Just like in school civics class you probably learned about the concepts of the government is structured, the principals behind it, a bit about other approaches, etc, I don't see why you couldn't learn the same things for unions. Of course the government doesn't really quite work like that, but isn't it better to have a baseline understanding and shared idea? The situation with unions now is that basically the only thing people know about them is propaganda from anti-union groups, unless they happen to be in one. I fail to see how this is better. It would be like if you first learned about democracy from a monarchist telling you how bad democracy is.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

The government isn’t a good comparison. Unions hold no illusions about acting in the interests of the general public. Their express purpose is to protect the members of the union, even if that comes at the expense of the general public. Police unions defending corrupt police and ensuring they can collect expensive public-funded pensions after blatant misconduct against the public is a prime example.

Kalium 6y ago
I routinely see people postulate that unions act primarily in the interests of the general public. Unions may not claim that, but at least some of their supporters do.
mf_tomb 6y ago
Most unions try to act in solidarity with labor in general, through organizations like the IWW and the AFL-CIO. Police unions aren't labor unions, as the role of police in society is to enforce the current capital distribution. This is counter to the goals of the rest of the labor movement, and there's currently a push to boot the IUPA from the AFL-CIO.

notJim 6y ago

> You're talking about union education as if it's equivalent to mathematics or something, like there is an absolute truth to be learned. Surely even the most pro-union people would acknowledge that not every implementation of a union is equivalent Just like in school civics class you probably learned about the concepts of the government is structured, the principals behind it, a bit about other approaches, etc, I don't see why you couldn't learn the same things for unions. Of course the government doesn't really quite work like that, but isn't it better to have a baseline understanding and shared idea? The situation with unions now is that basically the only thing people know about them is propaganda from anti-union groups, unless they happen to be in one. I fail to see how this is better. It would be like if you first learned about democracy from a monarchist telling you how bad democracy is.