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Yeah, it’s discouraging. But Hacker News is a place for capitalists (self-identified) or wannabe capitalists to hold discussions, and the site is run by a ventu

by csb6 6y ago

Yeah, it’s discouraging. But Hacker News is a place for capitalists (self-identified) or wannabe capitalists to hold discussions, and the site is run by a venture capital firm, so makes sense. Still discouraging to see the lack of education HNers have on unions. Maybe ignorance is a better word.

umvi 6y ago
> Still discouraging to see the lack of education HNers have on unions. Maybe ignorance is a better word. In theory unions are great. In practice America's implementation of unions end up as a crappy caricature of the theoretical one and are nothing like their European counterparts.
- csb6 6y ago
  Maybe recently, with many American unions struggling just to survive, but historically (in the late 1800s to middle 1900s) American unions have been incredibly effective and pioneering.
  - umvi 6y ago
    > but historically (in the late 1800s to middle 1900s) American unions have been incredibly effective So basically unions were good for ~50 years until the Mafia infiltrated the Teamsters?
    - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
      Unions in the western world in the post-war period made historical compromises with industry that helped contribute to 30-40 years of relative labour peace and high middle class prosperity. They purged communists and other radicals from their ranks, took anti-Soviet positions, and adopted cooperative and conciliatory bargaining positions that gained higher pay and job security by dropping some of the more classic demands of shopfloor control and political change. As a result unions started to look more like guilds than classic unions, they became managerial organizations like the businesses they were attached to, and they often lost legitimacy with their own memberships as a result. When the economy started to contract in the 70s they weren't in a good position to fight, and their influence waned. And when the Soviet Union collapsed in the late 80s they lost any kind of bargaining position -- nobody was afraid of the reds anymore, so they didn't need the unions or social democrats or Keynesian liberals to pacify the population and stomp out communist sympathy.
dencodev 6y ago
It's less about education, and more about "fuck you got mine" for a website full of engineers whose average salary is probably 6x that of the average American
- csb6 6y ago
  It’s partially self-interest, true, but speaking for Americans, there really is no widespread, institutional education on what labor unions are or do, and what benefits they can bring. Most people simply don’t think about them or believe whatever their employers’ PSAs tell them to believe because no one else ever talks about labor organizing to them.
  - cactus2093 6y ago
    You're talking about union education as if it's equivalent to mathematics or something, like there is an absolute truth to be learned. Surely even the most pro-union people would acknowledge that not every implementation of a union is equivalent? And that some have caused harm? I would say I'm union agnostic, I'm not against them but I have about the same amount of faith that a union will improve things in a given situation as that the government will. Both are supposed to be a representation of the people, run by the people, and both are often too bogged down by bureaucracy and power seeking to actually do anything constructive. Sure there are great historical examples of unions accomplishing great things, just are there are great historical examples of governments passing landmark laws, but neither of those guarantees that these institutions will do the right thing in any future scenario. And to the extent that I am going to put trust in one of these institutions, I'd rather choose the government. I'd rather see, for instance, healthcare given as a right to every citizen, than healthcare given to employees in just one industry. And in fact, unions have been some of the strongest opponents of medicare for all initiatives in the US in recent years. They've already negotiated good healthcare benefits for their members and they don't want everyone else who's not a member to get it too. This kind of "us vs them" incentive system doesn't appeal to me. And more fundamentally, I strongly believe that a lot of basic things (again, like healthcare, or disability insurance, or the ability to invest in a retirement account) should be much less coupled to employment than they are today, and unions are a force in the opposite direction.
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
I think it's maybe a bit more subtle. In our industry there's what I call the "California Ideology" (after the classic essay: https://www.metamute.org/editorial/articles/californian-ideology https://www.metamute.org/editorial/articles/californian-ideo... which is a bit dated but still stands the test of time) At one point this perspective was fairly counter cultural -- computing technology fused with Alvin Toffleresque third wavism, a tinge of libertarianism but without a suit and tie, some LSD, some cyberpunk, wear jeans to work, "change the world", etc. But that sheen is increasingly wearing off. The reality under the surface dressing is we are part of an industry with deep military ties, and it doesn't matter if you wear jeans to work and get vegan treats in the cafe, there's nothing particularly radical about computing technology and while we're "changing the world" it's really not in any egalitarian or progressive way. We're part of a semi-managerial class that is doing on the whole pretty damn well financially, but there's no reason to expect that to last forever. A lot of us ran around saying "information wants to be free" in the 90s and so on, it looked a bit naive to me then, but now it just looks comical and sad.
- cactus2093 6y ago
  > and while we're "changing the world" it's really not in any egalitarian or progressive way There is a good argument to be made that increasing the GDP is a moral imperative [0]. I know it's increasingly trendy to think all of capitalism is evil and we should tear the whole global economic system down (and to tweet about it from your iPhone while sitting in your air conditioned home, eating your meal delivered by Doordash). As much as it is true that inequality is higher than it should be, and there are lots of things in the world that should be improved, it's also true that for the vast majority of people in the US and around the world, their living conditions today are much better than they would have been at any other time in history. Which is the simple result of compounding economic growth. Talking about "changing the world" by building an app sounds a bit quaint and too self-serious these days, but I really don't think it's true that the average person working in tech contributes nothing positive to society. [0] https://www.mercatus.org/bridge/essays/economic-growth-moral-imperative https://www.mercatus.org/bridge/essays/economic-growth-moral...
  - 6y ago
Strang 6y ago
Well-informed, good-faith disagreement is possible on a range of topics, including this one.
- grecy 6y ago
  I agree wholeheartedly, though I'm not seeing much disagreement or discussion, I'm just seeing downvotes on any comment that even suggests the remote possibility unions might actually be a good thing.

by csb6 6y ago

umvi 6y ago

> Still discouraging to see the lack of education HNers have on unions. Maybe ignorance is a better word. In theory unions are great. In practice America's implementation of unions end up as a crappy caricature of the theoretical one and are nothing like their European counterparts.

csb6 6y ago
Maybe recently, with many American unions struggling just to survive, but historically (in the late 1800s to middle 1900s) American unions have been incredibly effective and pioneering.
- umvi 6y ago
  > but historically (in the late 1800s to middle 1900s) American unions have been incredibly effective So basically unions were good for ~50 years until the Mafia infiltrated the Teamsters?
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    Unions in the western world in the post-war period made historical compromises with industry that helped contribute to 30-40 years of relative labour peace and high middle class prosperity. They purged communists and other radicals from their ranks, took anti-Soviet positions, and adopted cooperative and conciliatory bargaining positions that gained higher pay and job security by dropping some of the more classic demands of shopfloor control and political change. As a result unions started to look more like guilds than classic unions, they became managerial organizations like the businesses they were attached to, and they often lost legitimacy with their own memberships as a result. When the economy started to contract in the 70s they weren't in a good position to fight, and their influence waned. And when the Soviet Union collapsed in the late 80s they lost any kind of bargaining position -- nobody was afraid of the reds anymore, so they didn't need the unions or social democrats or Keynesian liberals to pacify the population and stomp out communist sympathy.

dencodev 6y ago

It's less about education, and more about "fuck you got mine" for a website full of engineers whose average salary is probably 6x that of the average American

csb6 6y ago
It’s partially self-interest, true, but speaking for Americans, there really is no widespread, institutional education on what labor unions are or do, and what benefits they can bring. Most people simply don’t think about them or believe whatever their employers’ PSAs tell them to believe because no one else ever talks about labor organizing to them.
- cactus2093 6y ago
  You're talking about union education as if it's equivalent to mathematics or something, like there is an absolute truth to be learned. Surely even the most pro-union people would acknowledge that not every implementation of a union is equivalent? And that some have caused harm? I would say I'm union agnostic, I'm not against them but I have about the same amount of faith that a union will improve things in a given situation as that the government will. Both are supposed to be a representation of the people, run by the people, and both are often too bogged down by bureaucracy and power seeking to actually do anything constructive. Sure there are great historical examples of unions accomplishing great things, just are there are great historical examples of governments passing landmark laws, but neither of those guarantees that these institutions will do the right thing in any future scenario. And to the extent that I am going to put trust in one of these institutions, I'd rather choose the government. I'd rather see, for instance, healthcare given as a right to every citizen, than healthcare given to employees in just one industry. And in fact, unions have been some of the strongest opponents of medicare for all initiatives in the US in recent years. They've already negotiated good healthcare benefits for their members and they don't want everyone else who's not a member to get it too. This kind of "us vs them" incentive system doesn't appeal to me. And more fundamentally, I strongly believe that a lot of basic things (again, like healthcare, or disability insurance, or the ability to invest in a retirement account) should be much less coupled to employment than they are today, and unions are a force in the opposite direction.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

I think it's maybe a bit more subtle. In our industry there's what I call the "California Ideology" (after the classic essay: https://www.metamute.org/editorial/articles/californian-ideology https://www.metamute.org/editorial/articles/californian-ideo... which is a bit dated but still stands the test of time) At one point this perspective was fairly counter cultural -- computing technology fused with Alvin Toffleresque third wavism, a tinge of libertarianism but without a suit and tie, some LSD, some cyberpunk, wear jeans to work, "change the world", etc. But that sheen is increasingly wearing off. The reality under the surface dressing is we are part of an industry with deep military ties, and it doesn't matter if you wear jeans to work and get vegan treats in the cafe, there's nothing particularly radical about computing technology and while we're "changing the world" it's really not in any egalitarian or progressive way. We're part of a semi-managerial class that is doing on the whole pretty damn well financially, but there's no reason to expect that to last forever. A lot of us ran around saying "information wants to be free" in the 90s and so on, it looked a bit naive to me then, but now it just looks comical and sad.

cactus2093 6y ago
> and while we're "changing the world" it's really not in any egalitarian or progressive way There is a good argument to be made that increasing the GDP is a moral imperative [0]. I know it's increasingly trendy to think all of capitalism is evil and we should tear the whole global economic system down (and to tweet about it from your iPhone while sitting in your air conditioned home, eating your meal delivered by Doordash). As much as it is true that inequality is higher than it should be, and there are lots of things in the world that should be improved, it's also true that for the vast majority of people in the US and around the world, their living conditions today are much better than they would have been at any other time in history. Which is the simple result of compounding economic growth. Talking about "changing the world" by building an app sounds a bit quaint and too self-serious these days, but I really don't think it's true that the average person working in tech contributes nothing positive to society. [0] https://www.mercatus.org/bridge/essays/economic-growth-moral-imperative https://www.mercatus.org/bridge/essays/economic-growth-moral...
- 6y ago

Strang 6y ago

Well-informed, good-faith disagreement is possible on a range of topics, including this one.

grecy 6y ago
I agree wholeheartedly, though I'm not seeing much disagreement or discussion, I'm just seeing downvotes on any comment that even suggests the remote possibility unions might actually be a good thing.